Ravensfan23

Why does it seem the Ravens can always get outside FAs to come here for less money, while guys the Ravens develop in house seem to bolt for the money as soon as they get? Guess that's just the nature of the NFL today. 

9 minutes ago, Ravens4Real said:

Flacco already checks down way too much. I just don't like the signing of Woodhead at all. We need to find a reliable target that can push for first downs. Just my opinion.

I hardly think the Ravens are sitting back thinking that Woodhead will solve all their problems in terms of getting a chain moving WR. Woodhead is just a piece to the puzzle and if healthy he'll give the Ravens a Ray Rice type of weapon out of the backfield in the passing game. That they've been greatly missing. I fully expect the Ravens to address the WR position at some point this offseason. It might not be a big named WR like Pryor or Jeffery but I think they'll attack the position. 

1 minute ago, Number23 said:

I feel like Woodhead was signed more to replace Juice than to be a RB, dude can catch and block, we can use him on 3rd down. I think he takes Juice's snaps more than Dixon's.

That's exactly what it is imo. Juice is going to SF where Shanny will make him a household name and the Ravens just needed a 3rd back who could create mismatches for no where near the price. 

Just now, BALTIMOREFLACCO said:

I hate that Woodhead signing. We have no confidence in Dixon?

Don't think that's what this signing means. Woodhead is more of a change of pace back that will bring speed to Dixon's thump. The Ravens just checked off another box they don't have to address in the draft. 

Just now, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I'm actually happy with this. 

Prefer someone who knows the system and can win a game or two if needed than going with a rookie or someone new. 

agreed. He's actually a pretty good backup QB. 

Not big news, but Ryan Mallett is expected to return. I'm sure he's wondering what a huge preseason could mean for him with some of this lesser QBs getting paid. 

2 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

I guess what confuses me most about this signing is the depth in the db draft class both at safety and corner - what if one of the better safeties falls into our lap? Do we take them and sit them?

Take them and play them. They don't have to start. The better safeties in this drat class are bigger guys who can potentially cover big and fast TEs. Using a 3 safety set isn't hard on defense. 

3 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

You can't trade Webb even in a Forum Mock

That's just foul lol 

1 hour ago, jazz1988 said:

The Ravens offered  Wagner a similar deal as Mitchell Schwartz  which was about 7 million a year .

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

Ravens offer was competitive and aggressive

If that offered the same type deal as Mitchell Schwartz it was competitive and aggressive imo because I don't view Wagner as the top RT in the NFL and to pay him as such is a stretch, but I could see the value at 7 or 7.5M but at 9+ no way. This team has been in trouble or signing bad deals over the last five years. I have no issue with either Wagner nor Juice walking for the price tags they have. Congrats to those guys and on to the next for the Ravens. 

i stand corrected about Wagner. Did not see 9+ Million for him. Any word on what the Ravens offered?

1 minute ago, allblackraven said:

Projected is just under $9M after RFA/ERFA tenders

thx

1 minute ago, JO_75 said:

Only an original round tender on West? Interesting. Thought we would have valued him more to put a second round tender on him at least.

If someone signs him the Ravens get a 3rd round pick. I wouldn't mind that. 

I think they definitely like him but Dixon will be the guy moving forward imo and if the Ravens can find that fast homerun hitting change of pace RB, that'll probably be the 1-2 punch. 

2 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Hurst lives on.

 

So what does that put the cap total at now. I'd imagine that 5Mil freed up was eaten up by the RFA guys. 

2 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I live near Philly now -no official source but.....

Apparently Kenny Britt is at Harrahs in AC right now. Many witnesses have seen him and an acquaintance of mine has said he told a curious Eagle fan that he has agreed to sign with Eagles. 

 

Could be bogus but i trust it. 

Look for him to sign in Philly. 

I've wrapped my mind around the Ravens not signing him for some time. In fact I think like signing Marshall and selecting a guy like Copper Kupp in the draft or if the rumors of Pryor being on the Ravens radar is true i'd love that. But i'm still interested to see what Britt gets. I don't think he gets close to the 10M that some have said, but wouldn't be surprised at all. Also think it's a really good fit for him, he'll finally get to show his talent with a good QB. 

4 hours ago, The Raven said:

 

Fluker played for our new OL coach, too. Played for Bama, too. He's not my favorite guy by a long shot but he fits the bill as "big and strong." With coaching on footwork he could be a solid LG for us, I think. Keep him away from tackle by all means, but he could be a contributor. Though, I didn't see the Chargers much this year so he could have regressed a lot from his rookie year.

He's a potentially fit and he'll be cheap. At least work him out.

Jamison Hensley 

 

✔@jamisonhensley

1 minute ago, Tank 92 said:

lol.  What else are they going to post this time of year?  Slow times for the rumor mill guys. 

They didn't post anything but what the situation has always been. If the players hit the open market the Ravens run the risk of not re-signing them. That's been the case since day 1 lol. 

8 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

I just think there is no reason a player shouldn't test FA.  Obviously I understand the downside, but as a player you are always betting on yourself. 

I think there are some case where you shouldn't, but for the most part I agree.

In guys like Eric Berry's case, if your team is willing to make you the highest paid DB in the history of the NFL, that's probably as good as you'll get. Or if you're really tied to a place and they offer you a really strong offer like the Ravens did to guys like Jimmy and Rice, I think you just take the money and keep the continuity in your life. But for the most part I'm always testing the market. Especially now with teams throwing around Monopoly money. 

10 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

The Mitchell Schwartz example is exactly what I've been pointing to as well. He was seen as the an elite tackle and No.2 overall RT on the market and no one really went crazy for him, this was after Von Miller dominated RT en route to his SB MVP award. 

What I've noticed is that a lot of these reporters come to the conclusion that just because someone is hitting the market, that he's gone. I could recall that when Eugene Monroe hit the FA market a lot of guys including Aaron Wilson came to the conclusion that he was gone. That really didn't happen. Truth is these guys would be foolish not to test the market, unless Wagner/Williams were so turned off by what they were offered that they didn't even want to listen to the Ravens offers and decided to just leave it at the forgone conclusion that they're out. 

I think the Ravens are going to wait it out and see what the value of Wagner and Williams is. Maybe teams won't really value a run stuffing NT who isn't a game changer as a pass rusher, or maybe they like the guard prospect more than the RT. I think it's the waiting game between the Ravens and Wagner/Williams. 

I think that's exactly what it is. The Ravens can only do so much with their offer because hey aren't gonna outbid themselves. Of course you run the risk of losing the players if they hit the open market but you just can't overpay for a RT only and a NT regardless of how important those players are, they just aren't big enough difference makers. Truth is, you can find adequate replacements for those positions without much effort. Of course you want to keep them but you're only going to give them a fair offer and if another team wants to overpay then you allow them to watch. I think both Juice and Wagner return but someone may get crazy with BWill and the Ravens won't hesitate to use Peirce/Davis and probably address the position in the draft as well. 

14 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Oh I agree, I absolutely think that's possible but at the same time, when the Ravens say competitive offers, what do they mean by that? They weren't willing to make K.O the highest paid guard in the NFL and they said that the offers they gave to K.O were defined as "competitive". I really want to know the Ravens definition of competitive. When the Ravens say competitive, I think it means that they gave him offers that align for what a great RT makes on the market, that being between the $6-7M range, so its possible they offered him 7M or somewhere below that mark, that said that makes no sense because if you're that far apart with Wagner, why not just close the gap and prevent him from hitting FA? Maybe the Ravens envision a scenario similar to Schwartz where his market value decreased and they gain more leverage than previously had. 

Personally, I think that no one is offering him $10M, but the reports out there must have pushed him to test FA, that said I don't think he even passes the 8M mark and I don't think the Ravens offered him more than $7M at most.

That's not true, If reports are accurate, the Ravens offered KO 8.5M per year that would have made him the highest paid Guard in the NFL at the time. These 10M per contracts for Decastro and Long weren't signed to after KO's deal. What the Ravens weren't willing to and certainly couldn't afford to do was pay KO left tackle money to stay. So much like the guys this year, KO's people heard it was much more money to be had on the open market and they went for it. KO's people were right in betting on the open market because he plays a position of great value and also seen as an option for arguably the most important position on the Oline in LT.  I personally don't think the same will hold true for Wagner. 

I wouldn't be shocked to hear Williams signing with another team tomorrow. But in Wagner's case, I think there will be more negotiations between he and the Ravens because even if someone offers more than the Ravens, it won't be a huge gap between the 2 offers and the Ravens will probably be willing to match is my guess. 

1 minute ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I don't think cap space is the problem because they're trying to keep Brandon Williams who costs much more than Wagner. So unless they are trying to keep both Williams and Wagner or have Williams as the higher priority, then I personally think the Ravens did not offer Wagner to be the highest paid RT in the league. If they done so he would have re-signed already.

I disagree.  I think it's a classic case of funny money vs real money. Funny money is the money that you think might be available vs what you know is guaranteed. I'd be shocked if the Ravens didn't offer Wagner 7M or so which would make him the highest paid RT outside of Johnson easily. However if Wagner's people think they could get even more on the open market, why sign the contract now? There have been reports of possibly 10M per for Wagner so even if that's slightly true if you were his agent getting 8% or whatever, would you let him sign now or test the Market?

2 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

What some or most fans may not realize when it comes to Brandon Williams is that he may be a two down player but he's a positive in the lock room or should I say around other players. I'm not saying he's Ray Lewis or anything but is the type a guy you want on your ship when things get a little rocky .

How much is that worth though is the question. It's great to have those guys but if you have to paid an extra 7-12M to keep him is it worth it?

These reports by Zrebiec which i assume everyone is basing their opinions on, don't suggest that the Ravens are losing any of the 3 UFAs. I only shows what everybody already knew, those guys will test their value on the market and they're smart to do so. The Ravens will never be foolish enough to negotiate against themselves. The agents for Williams, Wagners and Juice have all the leverage right now. The common thought is that there is so much more money on the market and agents would be foolish not to use that against the Ravens. 

I'll continue to use Wagner as example. If the Ravens are offering to make him the highest paid RT outside of Johnson at 7M per but Wagner's people think there's a real shot at getting 10M on the open market, why would they sign now? It's just not smart. At the very least you know the Ravens are willing to go to 7M and they really want to keep you so if you were wrong about the open market and no teams are willing to go much higher than the 7M, the agent knows the Ravens offer is likely to still be on the table. On the flip side The Ravens would be foolish to raise their offer just because the agent thinks his client will be a huge hit on the open market. You're only 1-2 days away from seeing what your market value really is, so why wouldn't you test it unless the Ravens do what the Cheifs did with Berry and overpay just to keep him off the market. Which was smart by KC because Berry is a game changer, either Williams or Wagner are. 

Those Zrebiec tweet just indicate that the Ravens won't be able to keep those players off the open market, which Harbs basically said himself. We've offered competitive offers and those guys will do their due diligence to test their market is what Harbs said. These tweets are written in opinion. They just know that other teams are interested. Again I go back to the Schwartz situation this time last year. At the combine 8-10 teams were reported to be interested, so Schwartz turned down a 7M offer from the Browns because surely he'd get more on the market being such a hot commodity right? No, because no team was willing to make the 7M the Browns offered and when he tried to go back and accept the Browns offer they pulled it off the table so he had to settle for less. So when we see Zrebiec tweet that the ship has sailed on Wagner what does that mean? Nothing more than he won't sign before the market opens but he still has to be offered more than the Ravens did which unless Zrebiec knows contract details or have spoken to other teams or the agent, he's just giving his opinion. 

18 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

For what it's worth, I think $8M a year would be my cap on what I think he gets, although it wouldn't totally shock me to see him get more.  I'm more of the opinion that this is the perfect storm for Wagner to set the market though.  I'm thinking it's more of us being Ravens fans that we want to see his market stay relatively consistent.  I just don't believe that happens.  I'd be surprised if he doesn't get a deal as the highest paid RT outside of Lane Johnson, even if it's only a modest increase.

I think he definitely becomes the highest paid RT, i have no doubt he will honestly. I just don't think it'll be higher than 7.5M. But even at 8M I think the Ravens are still in play for him. Anything higher and they'll probably move on. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the Ravens standing offer is something like 5yrs 35 20M guaranteed, but Wagner's people declined because they want to see what the open market will offer which they absolutely should. 

4 hours ago, rmw10 said:

 

It's a big deal this year because the Wagner is probably the second most valuable free agent at T on the market.  As RF23 mentioned, Reiff is probably getting a LT job, but after that, who else is worth paying?  You can get guys like Clady, Okung, etc. but they're now average at best and are looking at relatively cheap deals.

That brings us to the money.  The market for RTs is currently around $6.5M for a year.  Averaged over 5 we'll say, that's $32.5M.  If someone comes in and offers $8M a year, you're looking at a jump to $40M.  With the amount of cap space out there, I don't see a team backing down from paying an extra $7.5M (estimated $4M in guarantees) to not get one of the best names on the market.

I think Wagner very well could come back.  As always, maybe I'm wrong.  I just think there's a very real possibility that he sets the market for the future.  The market is set up for him to do so, and I think the closer we get to the open of the FA market, the closer we are to losing him.

I just look at it the same way I do when I sit with my clients and set up investment accounts for them. Even though the stock market has been booming over the last 3 months, I can't promise you it will continue. However what I can do is look at the trends of the market over the last 20-40 years and we can have a good indication of how the market will perform. That's exactly how I look at the NFL FA Market. 

So with that said, let's look at the RT Market over the last 3 years. Since 2014 there have been 6 different RTs who have signed deals that placed them among the top 3 highest paid at their position. It started with Austin Howard in 14' with 6M per. Than in 15' Bryan Bulaga got 6.7M per and last year Schwartz got 6.6M per, also remember in each year the salary cap has increased. So in the last 3 years with a rising cap, the RT market has reset itself at a steady pace totaling of $700,000. So now all of a sudden Wagner is supposed to reset the market by 1.5-3M per year, even though it's pretty much the same RT needy teams as it was last year? Even if Wagner reset the market by that total of $700k per year, that's still only 7.4M per which is not blowing the lid off the market. At the end of the day teams have to be willing to pay the RT position and I just haven't seen evidence of it. 

I just don't see this perfect storm for Wagner coming together. Being the top OT available doesn't matter much if you are a RT only imo. If a team was willing to play him at LT they'd be better off signing Whitworth, Beachum or Kalil, to below market deals and have an experienced LT rather than pay big money for an experiment. So I guess this will have to be one of our wait and sees lol. I believe i'm up 1 after nailing Marty being retained. 

1 hour ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I could be, but there are things in Wagner's case of breaking the bank that don't add up to me. It's different than even in Brandon Williams case who is elite at being a run stuffing NT and a guy who will be highly valued at that. The RT position isn't a position that's becoming more desired or in more demand unlike the center position. You don't really see the demand in RT that's recently being seen in CB, Safety, and OG positions. It's not a secret that teams rush from the right side for years, so why is it a big deal right now to have a good pass protecting RT? I could see the value of a RT market sky rocket if the demand does, but that hasn't been the case. 

I agree with you, the demand just hasn't been proven to be there. Honestly I could see a guy like Riley Reiff blowing the lid off the RT market but that would be another KO like situation where a team is willing to pay him as a future LT in the next year or 2. I think Wagner is a really good player and if not for the foot injury might be the best RT right now, I just think the position he plays doesn't bring great value league wide which sucks for him. There's a reason why you never really hear the term Franchise Right Tackle and i don't really see that position getting that much more important to teams right now. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see teams putting a emphasis on attacking the Guard position in FA with guys like Zeitler, Lang and Leary to strengthen their interior and just make adjustments at the RT position. But with that said, it only takes one team to feel that RT is a huge need for him and have the cap space to say we'll commit 10M to this position of need. 

59 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I think you're wearing the purple shades here. Wagner may come back, but there's a very real possibility that he sets the market for future RTs, Lane Johnson withstanding. Don't set yourself up for disappointment. Teams have a lot of cap to spend and not many worthwhile players to spend it on.  Wagner is one of the worthwhile pieces at a position of great need for a lot of teams. 

I honestly think it's the opposite. I think so many people are looking at the increased cap space and the situation that played out with KO last year and over blowing things. Yes there is a real possibility that Wagner sets the market, but where's the evidence that there are teams willing to set that market way over the 6.7M it's at other than increased cap space?

For me until proven other wise, RT just isn't a position of "great need" for any team in terms of setting the market much higher above where it is. Why because it hasn't been proven to be. We can say the market was different or the FA class was better last year, but the fact is, there were about 8-10 teams reportedly interested in not only the best RT of that FA class but arguably the best RT in all the NFL. If ever you had a chance to bet on yourself and drive your price up it's then. However not a single team was willing to match the 7M per the Browns offered him to stay. So even if he would have set the market above Bulaga's 6.7M per, it would have only been by a whopping $300,000. So we're talking about the best RT in the NFL arguably and out of the 8-10 teams reportedly interested nobody was willing to increase their offer by 300K to lock him down and i'm supposed to believe that teams now will start a bidding war for Wagner or anyone else at RT to blow the lid off the market? Now I know it's bonus money and other things tied in, but if we're talking about Wagner setting the market in terms of guaranteed money that's a different ball game because the Ravens would have a ton of flexibility. 

I've seen Von Miller used as a reason teams will be so desperate for RT help. Well the NFL is a knee jerk reaction league and if ever you'd overpay for the RT position it would be just weeks after watching Von Miller destroy the Panthers oline in the Super Bowl, but again no RT needy team was willing to match a 7M per year price tag for a guy who was ranked the 2nd best RT and 6th best overall tackle that season. 

rmw10 you know me well enough to know i'm not attacking your opinion here, but more so the report itself. I agree 100% that Wagner could and probably will set the market for RTs, but I'll have to be proven wrong with the whole blowing the lid off the market part because I just don't see it right now.