3-4ravdef509

Thats all well and good, but what has he done lately? 3 games in a row, had the opportunity to drive down and win it on the last posession, Carr did, so did Dalton, Joe didnt. The news piece clearly pointed out, he didnt see Marlon. That is the main difference between Flacco and Aaron Rodgers, is a quicker view of his options.

That's why Joe Flacco is Joe Flacco, and not Aaron Rodgers. I'm not sure why you felt the need to point out the obvious there. Are you confused?

And compare the talent level the the offenses of the last four teams to beat us compared the ours. Then count how many leads our defense has blown.

I think the truth on Flacco's deep passing accuracy is that it's not terrible, but certainly not as good as many claim it to be.I say we leave it at that. Truthfully, he's accurate enough to be a great home run hitter, it's more his aggressiveness that has played into the mantra of his deep passing accuracy. 

And you know, hit a receiver in stride on those deeps balls...or at least make it so they don't have to essentially come to a screeching halt.

It's weird because, to me, it's like his accuracy has regressed when throwing deep. It wasn't always as bad as it has been at times for the past three years

I'm sure personnel and timing play a factor, but sometimes Joe just flat out misses a guy deep, and it's so much like he just missed them, it's like he threw the ball too late, or just throws it really high and it takes too long to come back down

I get what you are saying, but I have been talking about his deep ball since his rookie year...look at how amazingly accurate those bombs were to Clayton, Boldin and occasionally Mason....three guys who ran good routes. Then when guys like Torrey show up, who is notoriously bad at tracking passes, and a poor route runner overall -- not a coincidence that his bombs suddenly appear to be wildly inconsistent

I do believe that contributed to the problem. But I think it's less an accuracy thing and more a mental thing. He's been very inconsistent on the deep ball, throwing lobs when he should zip it and vice versa.

I will be the first among many to say Joe can and needs to play better. Even with last year being his best statistically, I thought he needed to make some changes and improvements. This year hasn't shown much improvement. He throws off his back foot a lot, is a little jumpy, at times inaccurate and irresponsible with the ball on some of his throws. 

 

Also, as 01/28/2001 would like to point out, his deep ball isn't as good as we can sometimes make it out to be. 10-25 yards is Joe's biggest strength.

 

So I wanted that all out on the table as a big neon disclaimer before I get to my point.

 

Many here are guilty of making terrible, and I mean absolutely terrible judgments about the play and the PAY of our quarterback. Some so terrible they make me question their football IQ. And I know many of you have tried calling them on these things when they happen, but I felt the need to make a post trying to make a more noticed attempt to correct these misconceptions. 

 

The mods might also decide to close this as I'm rehashing a lot of what's already been said before and this might not be a thread they wish to keep open as it's about Joe and these threads tend to get ridiculous. And the ridiculousness comes from both sides, homers and haters. Apologists and mudslingers.

 

Anyways, here's some of the most common misconceptions I wish to clear up.

 

1.) Joe is overpaid.

 

This is by far the most annoying thing. My reaction every time i read this is to   and 

So let's just say this one is easy to prove incorrect. As first of all, the total value and guaranteed $s of the contract are on par with a Super Bowl winning quarterback. In fact, with some of the contracts that have since been signed, Joe is on the cusp of looking underpaid during the times where he's playing well.

 

Also, the most important thing to me is Cap Space, which has always been reasonable. Next year they will have to restructure. It's in Joe's best interest, and the front office's. It's almost a foregone conclusion it will get done and set his cap somewhere between 19-22 AACH (Average Annual Cap Hit.) Which is again, what you pay for a Super Bowl winning quarterback. This leads me into my next point, but before that, a footnote that our cap situation is obviously very bad due to paying players like Pitta, Rice, Ngata, Suggs, etc with dead money and/or their big contracts and they are currently injured/and or both.

 

2.) Joe's 2012 Super Bowl run was a fluke.

 

Now this isn't as stupid and easy to disprove as the first one. But, to me it's still laugh worthy to say it was a fluke. First, let's spell it out - Joe Flacco led the Ravens and won 4 playoff games including the Super Bowl and was named the MVP of the Super Bowl, with a 100+ quarterback rating in each game, a come from behind victory in the Divisional Round, 3 straight games of 3Tds and 0Ints, no interceptions at all in all 4 games, and tying Joe Montana's record of 11 Tds and 0 Ints in a playoff run....and it was a fluke.  Just saying that is in and of itself a very odd and puzzling statement to me. No one gets that lucky. 

 

To disprove this, we really have to look and examine a few things. Starting with who Joe Flacco is, his history with the team, why we fell short 4 years in a row before finally getting over the hump, and why we've struggled since then.

 

     A. Who is Joe Flacco? Well, his weaknesses I've already thrown out there. Inconsistent mechanics, mainly in his footwork. Sometimes can give a play away with his eyes. His deep balls are anxiety filling, I literally have a heart attack every time he throws deep. His delivery isn't terrible, but not compact or tight enough to mesh well consistently on screens and short passes that require great ball placement and timing. At times he's overly aggressive. And there's a certain undeniable Homer Simpson quality (D'oh *facepalm*) to some of his throws. Now to be fair, all quarterbacks struggle with something, to different degrees they will at times struggle with some of the things put above here about Flacco. These are simply patterns that I've noticed, that when Joe struggles it's more often than not for these reasons.

 

But Joe has so much good that makes up for it. #1 is also closely tied to a weakness, which is his aggressiveness combined with a powerful arm matched with the ability to make any throw. This to me is what makes Joe great. He's also fairly mobile, great accuracy within the intermediate yardage, and shows up every week healthy and ready to play.

 

Some of you might not like this, but to me it's the truth. Joe's not a transcendent qb who can just make any team go. He's a good qb who in the right system with the right players can be great.

 

The most important things Joe needs are some things to help cover his weaknesses. First, he needs a running game, to the same effect that all qbs need a running game, but also to help pace out his short passing game. Second, he needs aggressive receivers. Joe is willing to throw into coverage. He wants to give his receivers a chance to make a play. He needs receivers willing to come back and attack the ball in the air. He also needs some speed to take advantage of his arm. Although his deep ball accuracy is all over the place, he hits often enough that you need to take advantage of his arm strength. Lastly, he needs time. And he really needs a good center and a good left tackle. He doesn't deal well this pressure from the blind side or up the middle, which honestly no qb deals well with. 

 

The system needs to be, well, idk the word for it. Not too simple otherwise it's easy on defenses, but not so complicated Joe has to take a long time presnap to think about where to go with the ball. He does need freedom to adjust plays, he's shown good judgment on audibles.

 

     B. So now we know who Joe Flacco is. Now, we know what he needs: Running game, aggressive receivers, speed on the outside, good offensive line, well balanced system. So now, a simple analysis of year to year. 2008, no speed on outisde. 2009, injuries plus still no speed. 2010, still no speed...a pattern of no speed finally ended in 2011. Offense started out up and down, then fizzled, than we got within a dropped pass the SuperBowl. This is one thing I also wanted to bring up...in the John Harbaugh era, the #3 receiver has often been the difference. It definitely was in 2010 and 2011. 2011 we finally had speed but not a true #3 receiver. In 2012, it all clicked. We had everything. Aggressive and fast receivers. Running game and good O-line (that really came together at the end of the year.) and the change at OC simplified things for Joe. This combination of all 5 things is what made his play explode from the first 4 years and 15 games into the game against NY and then the 4 playoff games of 2012. It's not a coincidence that all 5 things resulted in record setting performances and a super bowl victory. And from the help of our #3 receiver, Jacoby Jones.

 

But then in 2013 it came apart. Worst offense Joe ever had, having no aggressive receivers, no running game, and no offensive line. 2014 we got back close to the winning formula. We took the eventual Super Bowl champions the whole way to the brink of defeat. We really lost more because of our defense just being decimated.

 

This year? Well, offensive line sucks, and playcalling is suspect, and no running game, and no speed. Yet Joe's still not playing all that terrible considering, it could be much worse. And the defense has performed terrible two weeks in a row.

 

Now, did we have some lucky moments on that 2012 playoff run? Yes, every Super Bowl champion though has needed some luck to get there. It clearly, to me if you look at the facts, wasn't a fluke Flacco played as well as he did. He finally had everything he needed to succeed. Since then, we've only given him the proper surrounding environment one time, and it almost worked.

 

3.) Isn't a leader, shows no passion

 

Seriously? Go watch some wired episodes, and go back and watch Johnny U. Not every qb needs to be Tom Whiny Brady. Joe is who he is, and it makes him great. To me, he represents Baltimore, going to work, blue collar, no complaints, no excuses. Constantly trying to make more with less. I think people who make this claim just aren't grateful and just don't understand Joe.

 

That's it for now. If anyone wants to add to the list, feel free. I'm tired of typing. Sorry for how long it is!

Joes made his mistakes but in the end he has put us in the position to win all 3 games in the final 2 minutes.

 

This is true.

 

Joe does need to refine his footwork, but hard to judge him when he has no running game, inconsistent protection and no weapons.

Now we are seeing the effects of BAD 1st and 2nd Round DRAFT PICKS, going back to Kindle. It forces us to pay bums from other teams, and not have money left for signing our own home grown talent like Torrey, McPhee, Haloti, and other good pickups like Boldin. Then we think a Prevent Defense is a good D. Gonna lose one of the few impact players we have left at seasons end, SSS, very frustrating.

 

Have to agree with this

Flacco isn't blameless, his mechanics were a horror show, especially in the first half.

But this team isn't going anywhere with this defense so whatever. When your defense is this bad your need a high powered offense to complement it. Our only real weapon on offense is SSS, so there goes that.

 

Agree 100%. Joe wasn't perfect and hasn't been all season. But he isn't the main reason we're 0-3. We have a inconsistent defense and no real firepower on offense outside SSS. And no running game whatsoever.

He did. Joe threw him out of bounds. If you cant see that being an incompletion is 95% on Joe, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm sorry, the throw could have been better but to me that's a catch that Steve smith should have been able to get both feet down for

you either give him the tools and expect him to be like brady or rodgers or you build as good as a team you can and keep him like he is and just hope the coaches dont loose the balance when calling plays.

TBH its more fan driven that he has to be like rodgers.

every time its: trade up for 1 of the top rookies or trade for a stud WR and go on.

getting him weapons means it will take away from another position/unit which means he will have to carry a bigger burden.

becarefull what you wish for cause its pretty clear that 1 day they will love you but the next day they will hate you.

very few can keep their emotions in check and be objective lol.

Well from what I saw yesterday, doesn't seem like he is having a lesser burden to carry on the other side of the ball.

We don't need a stud. We don't need CJ or anyone that caliber. We need a Anquan Boldin and a Torrey Smith, and Dennis Pitta and an X-factor like Jacoby Jones. And a balanced running game to supplement.

There is no clear answer here. When one was quite possibly a game altering throw, that's huge. I don't look at things in a vacuum. I see too many throws from Flacco that leave me uneasy. After 8 years, I shouldn't feel unsettled when he back to toss one deep. And don't get me started on his horrid attempts at throwing a fade into the EZ. He excels with throws to the sidelines, dump offs (but any schmuck can handle those) and your 15-20 yard middle of the field ball. But only when thrown with velocity. He lacks touch with the ball when having to feather or drop a ball in somewhere. All just my opinion here.

Here's what's confusing to me: it's not like we in the ravens don't know who Joe Flacco is it this point. I mean, he sort it is what he hits, which is a good sometimes a great quarterback who can perform in the clutch and obviously can when you're Super Bowl. Somehow, I think someone in the front office or coaching has decided that Joe Flacco is to be like Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers b The problem is that he isn't. And not many quarterbacks are, but a lot of quarterbacks are similar to Joe, in that with the right supporting cast they can win a Super Bowl. We saw the blueprint for what makes Joe successful, especially in the playoffs, back in 2012.

I know they got some players in the draft this year, but that notwithstanding, the front office has not done enough to give Joe the kind of supporting cast that he needs. We give him a giant contract, and then not the tools to live up to that contract. Not some might say that he wasn't worth that kind of money, but honestly that's the going rate for a good quarterback anymore, and it's not like we were going to let him go after he just won a Super Bowl. In all honesty, the front office should've given Joe what he wanted the year before, and they be better off financially now.

And honestly playing the what if game and the would I could have should have game doesn't interest me.

To me it simple, we know who Joe is, we know what it takes to make him successful, so why aren't we doing it? Why are we constantly asking him to do more with less? That's not excusing his play yesterday, which well for the most part was very good he missed on a couple key throws. Just a general observation of Joe and our offense since 2012.

Honestly, on the throws he missed yesterday, and his issues in general, I think it's a matter of him overthinking it and not just letting the game come naturally to him.

Lord knows I'm no Flacco apologist, and that miss to Steve Smith was brutal. But that didn't lose us the game...it just prevented OT, where I'm not convinced we would've won anyway.

The defense can't give up 37 to guys like Derek Carr. What are Ben and Rivers going to do? Hell, what's Dalton going to do?

That was my reaction. He could have made a better throw. Smith could have made a better effort. But even if one or both things happened and we score seven there, we still might have lost that game with how awful our defense was.

flacco is just inconsistant. Im not fan of skip bayless but he once called him ''the best, Worst quarter back he's ever seen''.

I'm beginning to see it that way too.

And then after investing a huge contract into Joe, we follow up by stripping him of the tools that made him successful. It never made sense to me. Why invest more draft picks and free agent signings into the side of the ball that doesn't have your highest paid player?

flacco is just inconsistant. Im not fan of skip bayless but he once called him ''the best, Worst quarter back he's ever seen''.

I'm beginning to see it that way too.

I think Joe is just unconventional. He plays a certain way and has certain strengths and weaknesses. He also plays for a team that consistently invests more into the defense than the offense.

Add all that up and you get a unique player playing in a system where he's constantly asked to do more with less.

The year we won the Super Bowl was the year he had the best receiving core ever put around Joe. That's not a coincidence.

He has more time... He may be quicker, but even he couldn't have completed much the other night.

Agreed. But in general screen passes and those quick jump off tend to work better for other quarterbacks then they do for Joe, because of a quick release and better receivers. It's not really a knock on Joe, just an observation.

how does brady constantly when under pressure get the ball out vs ANYONE on a short route that ends up getting a first down or a 2nd and short?

Quicker release than Joe plus better play designs and often quicker receivers/backs

ha, yep. 90% of Flacco's picks are either "wth was he thinking" or his receiver doing something lazy or idiotic. At least his picks are entertaining

I've always thought he might have a night color confusion between purple and orange, considering how many dumb ints he's throws to bengals defenders. Lol

He is right about Joe making that pass a dozen times during the season...

If you're implying he throws a dozen interceptions a year this way that's wrong. in fact most of Joes interceptions are far more boneheaded than what many think last nights first int was. Both ints in the Patriots game last January for example I put on Joe. First for staring down a receiver and second for being overly aggressive.

Last nights int was a rushed decision coupled with bad luck

Some responsibility? And then you still say no? Sheesh.

I'll concede "some" responsibility, but not even close to a majority. That's still a far different tune than the "it was a bone headed decision" that many are touting. But I'll let it go.

We're on to Oakland! Hopefully the offense learns from this and the defense gains some confidence to help overcome the loss of Suggs.

I'm not sure what Smith could have done. Talib jumped in front of him and basically ran the route. He said after the game that he knew that play was coming.

Fought through contact and fought for the ball. Like people bombed on Torrey last year for not doing

It was not 20 yards. It was within 5 yards from the LOS which is legal as long as the ball isn't in the air.

It was around 7or 8 yards from what I saw. But what mattered less than how far out was that in continued while the pass was being attempted, and then Steve didn't do a damn thing.

You have a point. There was a ton of contact between Talib and Smith. Still, I'll call it a bad decision to let that ball out of his hand when Talib was in prime position to make that play. If he had more time, you're right, that ball isn't throw however, he was rushed and he made a mistake out of haste.

I can respect that. At the same time, had it worked out like it has many times before no one would have called it a bad decision. That's why I have a hard time giving Joe too much flack for it.

Sure, I won't contend it was a bad decision - especially considering the circumstances you pointed out. It was the one mistake he/we couldn't afford to make.

I don't see it as a bad decision. If the protection gave him another second to analyze the coverage, he doesn't throw it hot. But Joes style has always been aggressive. People on this forum praise him for that all the time. He always tries to throw the ball even in coverage, giving his receivers a chance to make a play. SSS is a receiver you should be able to trust. The illegal holding took smith out of the play and he didn't fight hard enough to get back into it. He's the number one guy, he needs to always be ready for the ball to come hot. That's how Joe has always played. It's not fair to say Joes great when it works and say it's a bad decision when bad luck turns it into a int. even in past defensive battles Joe has never been one to just not try.

So it's YOUR way(I say "your way" because you're the only one that still defends the throw) or the highway?

If someone tells me 2+2=5, I'm gonna tell them to check their math.

He was saying Flacco was staring smith down the whole time, which is far from the case when you watch the tape. Then he back pedaled into saying that Flacco had predetermined the pass was going to smith. Which may or may not be true. I don't think it's entirely true.

Absolutely ...the play was a disaster waiting to happen.

Still, it is the "without really looking" part that is on Joe. We just can't take that leap of faith, because the game situation did not call for throwing caution to the wind.

I understand the "win some, lose some" concept 3-4ravdef509 is talking about, but the game dictates when taking those kinds of risks are necessary and when they have to be resisted. This was one of those games where the defenses are so dominating that you just have to play it close to the vest.

Not the worst play in the history of the NFL, but not something I think Joe can be 100% absolved from here. At the same time, not even close to 100% his fault. As is almost always the case, success, as well as failure, is a team effort.

I understand not agreeing with the risk in that situation. But Joes done this a lot in many similar and also different situations. Often it works out, and when he does he's a hero.

It's like when a head coach goes for it on 4th down. If he makes it he's a hero. If he doesn't he's a bum.

I can appreciate more the idea though that Flacco didn't have to throw it, but acknowledging that it wasn't so much boneheaded as some have called it. Joe throwing it wasn't the end of the line for that play. It wasn't predetermined that him making at throw would result in a int. not like a throw into double or triple coverage or a over/under throw. The reason for the int was the good/illegal coverage and smith not fighting through it.