3-4ravdef509

It's a shame because all I'm trying to say is I'd take Joe over Ben, and that if Ben is better it's not by a wide margin. He's Joe's senior abs had two rings, so he should be the better QB but I think the only thing that gives him a real advantage if taking the team aspect out of it is his experience. But Joe is younger and nearly just as good if not perhaps a better overall investment.

See above post.

I said two back to back seasons healthy and playing as well as he did last year. In 2013 he basically had the same year Joe just had statistically but with more attempts. A good year, but not better than Joe this year or in 2010. (when I say not better, I know technically they were better but the difference is honestly negligible). Honestly the years you reference as being better aren't by that much. One year he had 32 touchdowns but only like 3000 yards. Another year it was flip flop, a 4000 yard season with only 20 touchdowns. In between the last two years and the two seasons I just mentioned, it's been a lot of meh, much like or even worse than Flacco. Game managing has little to do with being clutch, they're two separate categories. You can mismanage the heck out of a game and then put together at touchdown drive at the end to win it. Ball security , you can't just go by numbers because you don't know without breaking down every play which were their faults and which were their teammates fault and which were great plays by defenders. Just an eyeball test, Ben seems to throw more picks in the variety of "what the heck was that" where as Joe tends to have many picks be miscommunications between him and receivers, and others are often great plays by defenders, and a few misreads and bad throws, but not too often of the irresponsible variety. Interceptions and fumbles happen, they just mean you're trying. So when judging ball security, I go by who seems to be the better risk taker. I hope that makes sense, it's hard to explain, but you have to agree numbers really aren't the best way to evaluate this, especially when they're so close. Ben is not always good at making reads. He's certainly not much better than Flacco. Difference is Ben will not often than Joe find open receivers in his reading of the defense. This is because Ben plays with an elite offense. And why do you believe Joe wouldn't fair close to as well in Bens place? I don't see how Ben elevates the game of Brown, it's much more the other way around. And Bell does much of the same. Ben arguable had the best receiver and best running back in the league with him last year. That makes a difference, and Joe would about much like Ben to the offense line because he's have people open to throw to.

And like I keep saying, let's see Ben stack two good healthy years in a row.

You're argument is very weak. For one, must because the national media and fan base perception is one thing, doesn't mean that's true in reality, it's just how many people perceive it. Two, Ben has not really been statistically heads and shoulders above Joe until last year where the offense was loaded. You think Joe wouldn't light it up with Brown and Belle? The gap might be there, and Ben might have the edge, but it's much closer than you think

Well I can't argue with you cause you did it for me I'd say you hit the nail on the head. Ben has had revolving doors at the offensive line, but better weapons and honestly better systems too, which coupled with his ability to extend plays leads to a higher completion percentage. The systems Joe played in up until last year, coupled with the type of weapons he's been surrounded with have a lot to do with his completion percentage. This comes down to the fact that completion percentage isn't a really good gauge of accuracy.

I can pretty much agree with everything stated here

Did you watch the top 100 video of Joe this year? The Steelers players attested to his ability to beat heavy pressure. In 2012, many Patriot players said the same. I think the games where the pressure causes poor performance have as much to do with our receiver play as Joe's handling of the pressure.I know what the numbers are on Joe's play against pressure but I feel they don't paint an accurate picture. If I wasn't at work I'd try and break it down more specifically, but in a nutshell, I think Joe plays against pressure much better than you're giving him credit for. That said, I already conceded Ben is better in that aspect. It seems, to me at least, that you rank that aspect of a quarterbacks game very highly. To me it's important to be good at it, but your don't need to great at it. Just because Ben is uniquely gifted in it, doesn't translate to me as him being the better quarterback.

Living in pa and being forced to watch many Steelers games, let me tell you, Ben has his fair share of stinkers. He had a career year last year and got bested by Joe when it mattered most. Lets see if he can stack two good healthy years in a row. As for Torrey, if the argument is he needs a better quarterback, he might fare worse this year. If he shows me wrong, I'll reconsider the reasons for this struggles here a little. But, if he does play better, it could have as much to do with being utilized better, or a change of scenery, or growth in his game as it could be the on field chemistry and play of his quarterback. I can respect people who say they'd prefer Ben to Joe. I just have a hard time seeing the arguments that he's flat out better. In career comparisons, sure, but right now going into next year, the only thing Ben has as a huge advantage is a stacked offense.

I'm sorry, the torrey comment deserves more attention. Torrey Smith did some great things here, but also a lot of bad. For every time Joe missed him on a deep throw, there were more that Torrey dropped/ran the wrong route/ran the route wrong/didn't play the ball. He was a mediocre route runner. He was great after the catch and good against zone, but usually against tight man coverage he's disappear except for the occasional splash play where he's actually show some grittiness and get open or play the ball aggressively. Big Ben wouldn't not have made Torrey a better receiver. Thats just ludicrous.

Keyword being potential. And in a few years Joe could easily be considered a potential HOFer. It's not like Ben puts up crazy stats. I think he's had 1 maybe 2 really good years and a few average and a bunch of subpar ones where he missed a lot of games and/or the defense carried him. With one more ring Joe's career is pretty much on par with Ben's. Torrey would be Torrey anywhere he went. Ben's line hasn't always been good but he's often had much better weapons and also a great defense many years. Also Ben has never really shown the ability to consistently read and pick apart defense's from the pocket when his line does play good. He usually plays better when he has to make something happen.

I didn't say Joe IS better, I said you can't really say either one is largely better than the other. Pure Pocket Passing - Edge Flacco. I think Flacco is better about going through reads, and can make more throws from the pocket than Ben can. On the Run - Ben obviously. Broken Plays - Joe's not bad on broken plays, but Ben gets the edge here again. Ball Protection - I think they're more or less equal, but I tend to think Ben is a tad more likely to throw some of those face palm passes that get picked. Last year and in 2012, Joe showed real sound decision making for the most part, taking appropriate risks but not usually just throwing the ball up there. 2013 was a blip due to the entire offense struggling and Joe just trying to make things happen. Game managing. I give Flacco the edge here. Clutch Factor. Both are very good in the clutch, but Ben has a GWD in the Superbowl, so that's hard to beat out. Durability - Flacco and it's not even close. Leadership. I think Flacco is a great leader, but I think Ben holds more sway in Pittsburgh as he's the only main guy, where as Joe shares the spotlight as the face of the franchise. So in 8 categories, they split down the middle who has the edge. So based on which categories you weigh as more important, and how wide you gauge the discrepancies between them in the various categories, to me it's less of a "This guy is better period," thing and more of a "I'd prefer this guy for my team." For me, while Ben might hold a slight edge in a majority of skill categories, his lack of durability and the fact that Flacco is younger make me say that RIGHT NOW I'd say Joe is the better quarterback if you were deciding which one you wanted. But then again, as you said, it's really just personal preference as well.

Can someone give me an argument other than his two rings as to why Ben is better than Joe? I don't see it as a easy thing to say one is better than the other. Joe is a better pure passer. Ben is the better improviser. Both are leaders of their teams and are franchise quarterbacks. Joe's more durable, Ben has had some seasons with flashier numbers. To me it's close to a wash. I prefer Joe at this point as he's younger.

Probably the best/worst typo I've ever committed. I'll chalk it up to sleep deprivation from my two week old.

Rodgers is the only other quarterback besides Flacco and Ben that can play in a division such as the AFC North. Rodgers would do well here, as I believe Joe would do well there. I do believe each is the best fit for their respective franchise, though clearly Rodgers is the best QB in the league.

No no no no no no no. My reaction to this thread subject

Agree except for no Will Hill. I'd put him in before Wagner. Wagner was great but as seen in the playoffs, we can get by without him.

I have Mosely in there but last because of the inexperience and the struggles in coverage

Remember, this is going into this year, not career comparisons. 1. Definitely Flacco 2. Jimmy Smith 3. Will Hill 4. Doom 5. Yanda 6. Suggs 7. KO 8. Steve Smith 9. Brandon Williams 10. Mosley

That is my absolute favorite saying

It's certainly one of the most exciting drafts, specifically on offense, in a while if ever. Last time we went back to back on offense rounds one and two was Joe and rice.I'm excited and ready for football. Just not ready to call us favorites for anything yet. To be fair Cincy is a divisional opponent and they know Joe pretty much inside and out. I feel like he and the coaching staff need to aggressively change their playing style and method against them to try and gain an advantage, as another poster mentioned. Against the Texans, with that defense, especially the front seven, no one expects Joe to light it up, but the offense as a whole just gets dominated. It's hard to watch.

I'm not saying he'll never have good games, but idk if he'll ever gain the upper hand against them.

I don't think they're really saying that. It's more of a "Here's a guy most fans knock, he's low keel and sort of goofy," and they sort of talk about him nonchalantly as is his demeanor. I think it's funny. They gave him some props this year, despite his low ranking. He should be at least top 60 imo. Easily debatable that he should be top 30.

Pretty much. He's never had a receiver who could consistently beat tight press man coverage. And for three years he played in a deep passing system with no deep threat.

Honestly, this year's ranking is what he deserved last year, and vice versa