raven94

1 hour ago, rossihunter2 said:

willis is shooting up media draft boards a the moment but im not seeing the buzz on film - hes a fun prospect but i dont think hes 2nd round worthy unless im missing something on tape...

Agreed. He posted awesome combine numbers, but his film isn't that impressive

9 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

I'm also really curious to see what kind of monster Roman can turn him into.

Oh good point!

This is a tough subject. Honestly JoeyFlex I think you should think about it this way, A) he might be gone by our pick, so no need to worry about being torn about it. Ever since the senior bowl and the combine his stock has risen faster than steam in a sauna. He has been constantly mocked inside the top 12. I personally think he's elevated himself into that top tier of prospects along with Hooker, Adams, Fournette, Garret, Lattimore etc... 

And I love O.J. Howard. He can block which seems to be a concern Ravens FO has for tight ends  (minus the pitta Dickson experiment), he can run (that much is certain about him), he has an A++++ character  (never got the ball, never complained), and if he does get the ball he can make explosive plays with it that are worth at least 40 yards. This would cause defenses to account for him and could open up other players. He loves the seam route and so does Flacco. All of this makes me want O.J. especially since, as already stated, he's the best tight end prospect to come out in such a long time. On top of all of this the NFL is a match up league and O.J. Howard can be an asset as a blocker, he can indeed do the juszyk role in the backfield and get the ball much easier, he should outrun just about all linebackers so if he's covered by a linebacker because safeties fear our speed at WR then he wins that match up. Your fear is if he's covered by a safety and it's a tight window can he go up and get it? Personally, unless it's Kam Chancellor covering him, I think the only way he can't at least draw a PI call is if he trips over himself. 

The case against O.J.? Unproven, I agree, we have plenty of "talent" at the position, I somewhat agree. These are the only points against O.J. let's look at them 

1) the talent we have at TE is, besides pitta and to an extent Gilmore, also unproven. Waller is still working on it (I think he could be good), Boyle is one more failed drug test away from being kicked off the team or being suspended for another year, Maxx was popular but hasn't seen the field. I think there's lots of potential here, but since both O.J. and our group are really unproven you have to look at ceilings and O.J. has a higher one.

2) O.J. being unproven is impossible to refute and that certainly adds to the mystery of the boom or bust idea of him. But I will say this, with McCarron and Coker they actually occasionaly found O.J. when he was covered and he can make solid catches while carrying a defender, although with a limited sample size.

Long post I know, in the end I think if he's the BPA when we pick plus the depth of pass rushers and corners in this draft you take him

I really like what's being said here. I think to win the division you've got to be able to run the ball at will for 4 or 5 yards a carry. I love our defense, and it will be a glorious defense barring injuries next season, but it's still almost impossible to defend against a healthy steelers or a healthy Bengals offense for the 30 minutes that they'll have the ball. You've got to be able to keep them on the sidelines. I think to win the conference you're going to need a front seven that can stop the run and get after the passer. Oakland is a punishing offense with the OL they have plus the weapons they have at the skilled positions, New England is New England and you've got to be able to play in Foxborough, and defense travels. So I feel like the secondary is already there, the front seven is really just 2 pass rushers and a DE away from being completely ferocious, and the O line and WR'S are the farthest behind. I would like to complete the front 7 in the draft and bolster the OL with Mangold and some rookies in the draft. I agree Flacco can do things when he has play action, and a run game regardless of who is at WR/TE.

I've always loved the idea of having a dominant unit on a team. Not necessarily a dominant offense or defense, but a dominant unit on the offense or defense. Take for example the Cowboys OL, the Seahawks DB'S, the 49ers LB'S when Jim Harbaugh was the coach, the steelers WR'S etc.... I feel like with the examples I've given you you can see that really any dominant unit can give you a successful team. I want to know if A) you think we should pursue this model of team building and B). what unit would you like to see be dominant to help us win the division, the conference, and the SB

34 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

i just think that 1 playmaker can change an entire team because he moves the focus of the other coordinator - you get a gamechanging wide receiver and suddenly the defensive coordinator has to adjust and open up to your other receivers, likewise edge rushers, throwing away from number 1 corners etc. etc. - a high quality player can cover up the deficiencies of their unit by taking attention away - look at the falcons defense until they collapsed in the 2nd half of the superbowl - they had more holes than swiss cheese but the addition of keanu neal and deion jones gave them playmakers who the offense had to account for and they changed games and changed the narrative of that defense from being useless to functional - even covering up the loss of the number 1 corner on the team

i always advocate for holding onto as many picks as possible but there are times when you just have to make the pick and be done with it because of the value

You and I have already had a conversation about this. It's hard to argue with both of your guys' points. Sometimes staying pat is the way to go, sometimes trading back is the best decision. The only thing that we can say for certain relating to this subject is that we have to wait and see what the 15 teams in front of us do.

Has anyone thought of taking pocic and putting him at RT? Everyone says he's too long for C (I agree) but he could switch over to tackle where he did play for a season I believe

2 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I'm honestly just in love with the idea of barnett/elflien/king lol. If those 3 are out picks them i don't care about the rest of the draft. 

Ya Stewart is hard to judge. He could go anywhere from 2nd to 4th. Alabama's offense was very odd this year

Stewart has been solidly mocked in the 4th by about 5 different multi round mocks I've seen. That's where I'm taking him in my mock

4 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

he just has such good technique once he latches on in pass pro that he can be dominant - the problem is the latching on... i really like him in pass protection but in smaller spaces on the interior where his bad kickstep wont cause him that many problems and he can just sink his hips and drive any tackles/guards - ironically he is less dominant as a run blocker but only because he doesnt finish his blocks - if he keeps working his feet through the block he again could be dominant

To be honest I feel like Cam's run blocking is great. He does pretty well in space for a big guy, he pulls well (yes a guard trait), yes when he latches on he's the best and I feel like that carries into the run game. From what I've seen when Cam doesn't do well in run blocking it's because he's confused on who or what his assignment is. I could be wrong but it seems to me like he's confused when he does bad. Anyway I think he can be just as good as Rick Wagner at the very least. I also like Cam because the rest of the tackles are so so. I would be happy with Taylor Moton in the 3rd just as well though. 

13 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

he'd probably be ok as a right tackle as long as we dont get too fancy with blocking schemes and maybe help chip with a tight end going down the seam or something - that way he's probably up against more power rushers than speed guys (although tbh once you get to the nfl that doesn really matter) - he'll be functional as a right tackle and probably not a trainwreck - i just think the opportunity cost of not playing him at guard is too big to play him at tackle because of how powerful he is

That's where we differ I guess. I think he can be good in pass protection, I think he can be an upgrade over Wagner in both pass and run at tacckle. But I do concur, he would be a monster at G. KO clone man. Even look at his measurable, eerily similar to KO

2 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

he's got a bad rap in the media but he's supposedly been interviewing well, owning his mistakes (and confirming that they are very much in the past), been getting good references from nick saban - all the things you want from someone with the potential legal problems

as for the actual tape stuff - i dont think teams see it that way at all - ive only seen these narratives (apart from the run-game one) pedalled anywhere other than on these boards - i dont think he's too light to play the position, his combine numbers were disappointing because we expected better but they werent actually bad, he himself points out that he's not actually a bad run defender as the LSU tape shows but he wasnt asked to do it as much

i think the problem here is just that the media are overreacting because of the drugs tests without any actual knowledge of how many/when/likelihood of recurrence because his film is electric

I'm completely in agreement with you here on the analysis of Tim Williams. I've actually said alot of what you said on these boards in the past. I've just been saying that based on some of the media reports and mocks etc. That I've seen I can see him going in the second round. I've always been a fan and supporter of his on these boards, I want him in purple and black. I'm just stating that some info leads me to believe he can go in the second

57 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Have you listened to his combine interview? I posted it on the media mock thread. You should listen to it. 

Oh I've listened to it. I know he's not a bad guy. I think lots of people know he's a good guy. I think a lot of people are overreacting to his poor combine performance and also to his admittance to failing drug tests (although I thought his honesty there was the real indicator of character). Lots of the mocks I've seen have him at least slipping to the second if not later. Grant it since when do draft analysts have a single clue about what's going on? My statements are just made off of the mocks. That's all. Like I've said I believe he's 1st round talent, great character, great college program, great teammate. 

Has anyone considered taking Cam Robinson and putting him at right tackle? I don't know if that scenario has come up at all yet on this thread (correct me if I'm wrong). I think he has great gaurd ability and can be a KO clone, but I also feel like he can be put at right tackle and do fine. He wouldn't see too many of the great pass rushers over there and he and Yanda would make for a terrific run blocking tandem.

6 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I don't think he will call that far because of it (barring another failed drug test). He's been interviewing very well and it doesn't seem to be as big of a deal as Noah Spence was last year. After all it's only weed, he does have a permit for that gun I think he just misunderstood the laws for having a concealed weapon permit. If he does fall than some team will get very lucky

Well his stock has been falling. People have been looking at his negatives a lot lately. His light weightedness, his supposed liability against the run, and his poor combine numbers, and a couple of other points as well. I believe he'll be at our second round pick and I'd pick him and consider it a steal because I believe he's got 1st round. He's just got a public rap at the moment it seems

7 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

so to help a little bit - i think houston probably ends up with romo and the scenario of them trading up with us i think is less likely because im not sure more than 1 qb is going ahead of us and i reckon most qb needy teams will have 4 qbs who might qualify as first rounders and i dont really think that the redskins are a threat to a first round qb if im terribly honest - so i mentioned houston but i dont think its likely

the thing about the draft slot points system is it assumes all drafts are equal which they arent - last year a trade down might have been easier because there were less first round draftable prospects and this year its probably more difficult because there are more first round graded prospects which means teams dont have to sacrifice picks to make sure they grab one of them because one will definitely fall to them - i normally have maybe 20-25 first round graded prospects but this year i have 41 so far (not including qbs - although this year that might not make a difference anyway given the poor qb class - but i digress) which means that less teams are going to need to trade up to get a first round graded prospect - as i said above i think its far more likely that teams who have mid-late picks in the 2nd round will want to trade up to grab a second first round prospect because of how many more there are this year - and my board is incomplete at the moment but i do have 177 prospects on it so far if i include the 11 qbs

as for your two concepts i think maybe you need to change your attitude towards the draft as a whole in terms of the ravens: the ravens never use the draft to fill holes, they like picks as much as you or i but if thats the be all and end all at what point do you stop trading back? - do you trade every pick back and pick up more picks - there has to be a decision and it is very personal to each team but at what point is the value of the player worth more than the extra picks and so its impossible to make blanket statements like i just want to trade down whatever happens for two reasons: you dont know what you are getting in return (also depends on how many teams want to trade up) and how much you like a player - ill admit i get very attached to certain players so if they are on the board at a pick id like to take them where possible because in my head i have an almost pre-negotiated value for these players

with regards to the hole-filling i was just having a nice debate about something similar on the OLine draft thread (i think that's where it was) about whether you pick the tackle in the first because of how it would affect the line or take a playmaker at a different position who has fallen - and it comes down to how much need affects the BPA on the ravens draft board (which we dont know exactly, we just know it factors in) because the ravens always pick BPA so they will pick the guy they have the highest grade on

i have a feeling i might have confused you more but it is interesting to discuss these things - my personal stance this year is that i think it is likely that a player worth picking at 16 will fall to us and if that happens i think we should take him because we have so many positions of need that, as you say in your 1st concept, 1 player can change everything

Oh no worries. No confusion. Like I said, I have my issues and I recognize them. I also recognize when they become an issue (like this year). I was just getting them out there so people understand my reasoning. In the end it all does come down to this: the draft is a total crap shoot. You never know when people will reach or make a smart choice, you never know if someone will bust or bloom

40 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

you're right that there are a larger then usual proportion of prospects who have 1st and 2nd round grades but i think the problem with trading back as a given straight off the bat is i reckon that there are maybe 12/13 prospects who are worthy of selection at the 16th pick which means there is a high possibility of one or more of those guys being available at the 16th pick - i see there being a dropoff after those guys albeit not a huge one - and it's like ozzie says, you build through the draft but that's not to say you fill holes in the draft - i think we'd be hard pressed to pick pro-bowlers at corner, edge, receiver and OL because no one's conceivably going to give us more than a 3rd and maybe a late round draft pick to move up to 16 because those teams behind us are also aware of how deep the draft is - i think its far more likely that trade options are more available towards the middle/end of the 2nd round

this of course is the problem with "trade down" scenarios at this point because teams need a reason to trade into our pick and if im honest i dont really see who teams would trade up with us to get ahead of that they couldnt trade with the redskins (who are a mess of a front office especially without their draft specialist) - in any trade down scenario there has to be someone to trade down with and the only way i see it maybe happening is if a team really thinks the redskins are taking a rb/qb and the giants/lions/texans want to trade up - the texans are the only team there where i could see us getting a 2nd round pick off them but given theyve already given away next year's 2nd round pick i dont think they are giving up this years either - they might also grab tony romo before the draft and make that option void - the only other way is if maybe dalvin cook falls and the bucs are all in on him and are scared the redskins might bite - but that's only a couple of spots and given the fact that dallas couldnt get a 3rd rounder to get us to move up 2 spots at the top of the draft last year id say its unlikely wed get anything more than an extra 4th from the bucs at that point

all this is really to say that unless a team sells the house from the 2nd round to get a qb because they are convince the redskins are picking their qb at 17 then we arent getting picks in a trade down that will really be anything beyond developmental guys or depth

Your points are valid, certainly. You actually hit my ideal scenario on the head. Trade back with Houston. That's 9 draft spots, which is huge and garner's a lot of collateral. I've been using the draft slot points system, or whatever its called, and trading back with the lions or texans would do the trick and that would net a late 1st and either a 2nd, or a 3rd and a 4th packaged together. I honestly like the idea of getting a 3 and a 4. Trading that far back would do it. But at the same time there's a couple of realities here that I'm still trying to grasp. A) You only need one player at a position to come in and be exceptional and that can change your whole team (I always try to fill in the holes). B). Sometimes a player is worth not trading back for, I like having more picks so you have greater odds to hit on a prospect and get a good player, but let's face it if peyton manning is there you take peyton manning and move on. Bare with me here, these two concepts I struggle with sometimes

I honestly think we should trade down regardless of who is there (go ahead and chastise me for that). My reasoning is that this is a loaded class from round 1 to round 5. Unfortunately this is a year where the Ravens only have 7 total picks (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and a 6th), and it also seems to me that suddenly the Ravens have a surplus of holes; C, RT, OLB/pass rusher, CB, DL depth, OL depth, WR. Hell, before free agency there were times where it seemed like we needed a whole new team (according to a few people). Anyway I feel like we will get a stud in the first round at really any pick 1-32, so I've been on board with trading down and getting more picks to really get a large class of stars. We can easily get a pro bowl corner, pass rusher, and pass catcher or OL in this class alone along with some solid starters who can really round out the team. I think we should trade down into the 20's and get an extra 2nd, or an extra 3 and 4. I'm thinking of creating some threads that address whether we should go more offense in the draft or go more defense, as well as some prospect analysis, and 3rd and 4th round prospects

39 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i dont see williams and gregory in the same light, williams actually seems like a really good guy and great teammate, his postgame interviews are very humble and he shares the blame and accolades with his teammates, but on the field he has a madman mentality, i like his character tbh and i think he may have just been a dummy in college, it happens. gregory on the other hand was close to a justin blackmon, dude has mental issues and he is legitimately dependent on weed and cant give it up, you can see in his interviews that he isnt right in the head, i mean hell im almost certain he was high at the draft, he sure as hell looked and acted like it. i wont bank on it, because his brandon chicken story and the fact that he thought a receipt was a good enough carry permit show bad judgement and general stupidity lol, but im not convinced he'll have a drug problem or that hes a bad kid. 

reddick williams and jones would be a freaking coup, nobody would be touching the top of our draft class. i dont see sidney falling to 48 though, he should be back by midseason at the latest and likely wont have many lingering effects, the kids too talented to fall that far from one injury.

As far as Jones goes anything can happen, I can see him falling. No one thought Myles Jack would go where he did. And I agree with you on williams. He is truly a good guy and is very genuine. I watched all of his interviews, dealing with Saban, being at Bama, having the teamates he had I think have all made him a good guy. I love Williams for us. With that being said it only takes one failed drug test and you can be out for 10 games. Gregory has unfortunately set the standard and the expectations of GM'S and front offices. T Williams honestly deserves to go in round 1, but in such a loaded edge class on top of the Gregory issue he's going to fall to round 2. Maybe not to 48 which changes things, but I think he will go in round 2. Yes it would be a couple, I'm an optimist and so I'll throw options like this around in my head sometimes

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

man this hurts. i think pass rusher might be top of our list now. im getting the feeling that we could be the team to take a shot on tim williams early if the board isnt falling in our favor. 

of the realistic options, id have to think our board is somewhere along the lines of having barnett tops, probably having humphrey as our top realistic corner with jones' injury, and then i think forrest lamp, haason reddick, and tim williams may be in a tie for the next highest priority, they just seem like fits for what the ravens need and want. i personally would now have tj watt very high on our boards at 16, but im not sure any team is gonna envision watts true potential and may see him as a reach..

In my mind this makes trading back the way to go. At 16 we would still have a litter of great prospects to choose from (just none of them CB) I envision us trading back a few spots for a 3 and 4 or maybe for just a 2nd, and then taking whoever best fills our needs. I might be alone in this but I still feel like WR is in play for us at the trade back spot, say if Corey Davis falls to the 20's. If a trade happened I would go Davis, Reddick, Lamp, or Conley (who I'm completely sold on but like). Honestly I feel like Tim Williams will slide because he's basically going down the same path as Randy Gregory with his substance abuse problems. He'll be there at our second just because there's a great risk he's never available to play because of suspension. And I think it's very possible that S.Jones falls to our 2nd because Achilles takes 5 months alone to just become functional again and then about another 7 to 8 months to get it back in athletic shape. If I can get Reddick, T. Williams, and S. Jones in the same draft and then get a good Mo Claiborne in FA to cover for a while I'd be satisfied

1 hour ago, leziRav said:

What Ju Ju Smith in second round and get a pass rusher in 1st rd ( Barnett, Taco) or trade back for Tim Williams?Then CB in 3rd round if we sign Clairborne. I really don t want us to spend another 1st rd on a WR. We are a defensive team first. I rather want us to take Cook than a WR. I still have faith on Breshad to be a number 1 WR. Let give him another chance first.

Our run defense is good now. We need to fix our pass defense. That mean pass rusher and CB. If we had a solid pass defense, in 2014 we will have beat the Pats in playoffs and last year we will have beaten the Steelers. 

Not to mention this is a weak WR class and good WR's show up about every other year while good pass rushers and corners hardly ever show up in the draft. I'm with you, let's go defense, defense, and defense. I like some of the big bodied possession receivers we can get in the 3rd and 4th. I want early picks to get quality defenders that can start, make pro bowls and differences in games. I want us to find our next Terrell Suggs, I want to find our next Chris Mccalister, I want to find some guys that'll give some star power and youth to our defense. Joe Flacco is better than any other QB we've ever had. I wish he was better, but he's good enough to win a few games on his own. We need a defense that makes it easy and doesn't give up the leads that he gets for us late in games. Honestly our formula to sweeping the AFC north and becoming a power house again is to get a top defense and slightly better than mediocre offense. Possession WR and dflefense is what I think we should do

1 hour ago, 52520Andrew said:

Oh what does everyone think on Colorado CB Ahkello Witherspoon?

He can cover very well. His length is certainly a plus, he has good feet and mirroring skills not to mention he has good deep speed/recovery speed. He played on an island at times so he's used to being on his own. He played against some decent WR's in the Pac 12. My one negative is he seems to be allergic to being physical. Of all the CB's in this class who don't like to tackle or be physical he has to be the worst. If a WR gets his hands on Witherspoon to block, Witherspoon will simply quit on the play. He makes no effort to get off of a block. What's more is if you run at him he will simply Oley you and step aside. People on these threads talk about not caring about tackling and justifiably so, but with this guy he's not just not tackling, he's eliminating himself as a defender for a lot of the plays. Playing against the Steelers and Bengals twice a year would be very bad for him. So for simply not being physical in any way I've greatly lowered his value. Love him as a cover guy, but he literally can't do much else on the field. Earliest I'd take him is round 4

7 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

True but Garrett did make plays when not matched up on him, it isn't like he wasn't near his peak or anything. Robinson did pretty well in that game. 

Yeah Garrett vs Cam is basically a prime showing that even if you have ungodly athletic ability and are extremely blessed with freaky length and strength (Myles Garrett) you still have to have skill and polish as a pass rushers. Garret just went at Cam like a madman without a plan and so all Cam had to do was just get a good kick step that went far enough back to cutoff Garrett and then just deliver an ok punch and latch on to him inside. That's why Cam won a lot of the match ups again also Garret for 3 years. Because you can't beat Cam unless you've got good skills as a pass rusher

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He started LT a few games for us and didn't do great but he wasn't horrible, and LT is just so different from RT. He was a LT in college and did very well, probably a 3rd round RT without the arrest. honestly I'll be surprised if we put him at LG as our line currently stands 

 

 I'm a big moton fan myself. He's perfect for what we're looking for and I believe he's an excellent guard prospect and a solid RT prospect. 

But I think feeney looks elite, guys with his level of power are rarely so technically and refined with such great footwork. He's also rumored to be a very high iq player, and also is a fit for a power run game, he pulls very well and never misses his mark when he's going downhill aiming at a moving target and he brings the pain when he arrives 

I agree that he's high IQ, but I've failed to see the power consistently from him. I've seen times where he fails to generate a push in the run game and on some occasions I've seen him driven backwards. I do appreciate that he can play through pain and is versatile and I do like him as a prospect, but not enough to warrant a first round pick. You'll have to reference me to some of his better film. I usually come across ok film for him (only 4 games).

9 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

At this point in FA, I really think our best bet is trade back and target feeney. But for some reason the ravens seem perfectly fine with Lewis at LG and I don't get it, he's an ideal RT with tackle experience. Stanley, feeney, zuttah, yanda, Lewis would be an excellent OL.  

However... it's hard for me to pass up the sexy picks in the first round like a cb or edge rusher... but feeney is essentially a lock to be at minimum a very solid starting G, which is where we need the most improvement

One thing that has been concerning about Feeney is apparently he has a history with concussions. So it worries me that he might be a Chris Borland or some other early retiree due to head issues. No source but I remember hearing about it during senior bowl week from announcers. Also I feel like you're over rating Feeney a little bit. I'm not saying hes not good, but I also don't think he's the best gaurd since (insert whoever you want). I think Feeney is destined to be alright though. With that being said my view of him means he's a 2nd round target and not even a 1st round Trade Back option. So I'm basically viewing the sexy positions as our only 1st round route. I really like Taylor Moton though in round 3. He can be a good right tackle and believe or not he can be an excellent gaurd 

6 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

DB is so deep, I don't mind double dipping this year. I have a feeling one of those late 1st rounders like Quincy Wilson, Adoree' Jackson or even Ahkello Witherspoon.

 

I can easily name 5 other names that are in that range.

I say go with the strength of the draft.

Jimmy Smith ain't getting younger or more durable.

Tavon Young is perfect for the slot.

The rest of the DB is in shambles.

Let the rookies battle it out for the 2nd outside spot.

We just have to believe in Marty to fix our offense.

 

This is kind of my mentality too. I've got more of a defensive theme to my mock drafts. I'm a fan of Sidney Jones in the first or Gareon Conley in the 1st/2nd and then I'll be honest Howard Wilson from Houston is going to be a really good corner back. He's caught my eye and I would obviously like to get him for as cheap as possible, maybe 3rd round but hopefully 4th, and then also get some pass rushers and a few OL and that really sums up my draft