Glen1024

When year after year other teams keep picking off your top players coming off rookie deals and players getting big pay days, that says other teams still value the talent of the ravens....our GM has built more than one superbowl champion....my question is why the change of offensive and defensive philosophies when what has worked well for so long around here....the talent and scheme is not meshing, the philosophy has changed either we get back to what has worked in the past with Ozzie or we need someone new that can draft talent to fit the new approach we've taken. And with the 2 worse rushing teams in terms of yards and attempts in raven history these last 2 seasons it can't be denied that somewhere the approach changed

3 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Call it excuses if you want, but anyone(with eyes of course, lol)paying attention understands that the Ravens 2015 O line was about as bad as it gets and the QB was smashed week in and week out to the point his knee was blown out. The 2016 line play improved late but was still below average. Throw in the QB coming off major knee reconstruction and it ain't rocket science why there was "regression" as you put it. It was pretty obvious the combination of the constant pressure and knee was in his head. Thinking that won't be much of an issue moving forward. 

And add to that a couple of bad offense coaching hires to complete your reasoning....which in the professional sports industry comes off as excuses...Bottom line you play better fans won't have to come on forums defending the teams underachieving because his play would do the talking for you....And for the record I'm pro Flacco my issue is with the coaching....bad coaching, bad habits begin setting in.

6 minutes ago, FlocksGottaFeed said:

Does Our Organization Really Want to "Help Joe"? Really?

Here's the deal: If we really wanted to help Joe the 1st thing to do is to acknowledge and accept who he is. He will never likely be a top-tier QB by the end of his career. He is a reasonably efficient QB who if put in the right conditions can have 'top-tier' QB games from time to time. I'm still a fan of Joe's, but I think our organization is completely missing the boat on what it would take to elevate his play and make it more consistent. More play makers, coaching continuity and dedication are good, reasonable wishes, but Joe's more important need is urgency. It's mental beyond everything else.

1. Firstly, have him admit to himself that he's not a top-tier QB currently although he's had a few great games (playoffs and SB). This will only challenge him to work harder to get to that goal and/or humble him enough to know that he must sacrifice enough to help the entire offensive unit to become top-tier. This may mean giving-up some of his salary to procure more talent around him (i.e. - Brady).

2. Coaching/Continuity: The Marty-thing was a mistake. It won't help Joe to get there at all. The best move would have been to keep Marty as a QB Coach (only). That's adequate continuity. He should have just remained as a season fill-in and continue his earlier role because of his amicable relationship with Joe, but change is needed.

3. Bring-in a new OC that runs the current system, but lights a fire under Joe and doesn't allow him to dictate his play, scheme or even allow him to over-assess his development. Start with the most difficult variations of the current scheme during the off-season and stay with them.

4. Lastly, address his ego before it's too late. Yes, Joe has a huge ego. Examples of this are the "I don't want to be lining up at Z and X. I want to line up behind center..." wildcat rant even though the play averaged over 10 yards per attempt, on the ELITE question "I mean, I think I’m the best," he said back then. "I don’t think I’m top-five, I think I’m the best. I don’t think I’d be very successful at my job if I didn’t feel that way. I mean, come on." and his consistent insistence on not audibly out of bad play calls, work with the entire receiving core and skill players during off-seasons and generally not accepting critic even when it's due.

This said, it's mental. If the organization wants to truly help this soon to be 10 year veteran QB and elevate the team as well, challenge is resolve - don't pander to his comfort-zone. He performs better in that role and so does the rest of the team

Well said, I've always believed Flacco needs to be challenged mentally with his game. Imo I think that's where a lot of his inconsistency comes from in that mental prep or lack thereof

Just now, rossihunter2 said:

no one would sit him - who for?

what would you have done after the superbowl run instead of paying the contract?

do you really think a guy makes it in the nfl without being innately competitive and hard-working?

and literally everything we've heard about flacco this year is that he hasn't been complacent - he's been literally goading marty into being more aggressive - that doesnt sound like doing what you're told to me

Sit his butt a possession or 2 as noted earlier in the thread there are very few options with a franchise QB....and the complacency is with harbaugh not Flacco he just goes along and does what he's told....he just runs what's called are his words....I would have loved to see him check to some runs in the patriots game when they kept dropping so many people but I don't expect these things from flacco unless it's being told for him to do. When competent play callers/ game planners are in flacco ear I saw elite coming out of that boy but these last 2 years he has regressed

Flaccos best year was 2014....

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And 2 seasons have came and gone since, hence the word "couple"

1 minute ago, rossihunter2 said:

so what would you do?

Can't do nothing but go oline now and bring in another receiver either in the draft or FA as we've boxed ourselves in with regards to the coaches (which would've been my top priority). I would take that security blanket in pitta away to force him to develop chemistry with these younger guys we have.....him and them underperforming is a prob as draft investments on that side of the ball go to waste. Over all I just think there is a sense of complacency there with harbaugh who will never challenge or sit him for not playing well. And Flacco being who he is just rolls along doing what he's told and reflecting in his play the offensive coaching around him with it.

Excuse makers will continue to make excuses, QB play has been poor these last couple years no way around that. Regression in Flacco play is obvious to all with eyes, I say the quality of coaching has dropped others the talent at receiver. Whatever the issue bottom line is the ravens aren't receiving the return on investment from a lot of players flacco on down. And as the QB you touch the ball every play, you get the lion share of glory in wins, get lion share when it comes to pay, well you damn well be ready to take the heat after a year like this.

Never thought I'd see and hear this from my ravens, boy has mediocrity settled in there over at the castle

Another week of head scratching decisions... another coordinator"s" fired...and the beat goes on

5 hours ago, Tiznut said:

If, and that's a big IF, we moved on from harbaugh it wouldn't be to go backwards and get billick. Offense was his specialty but never performed consistently under him. Winning %age in the regular season and post season is less than harbaugh. Missed the playoffs more under billick. 

 

Being frustrated that we missed the playoffs is no reason to rehire a guy who also struggled to make the Ravens CONSISTENTLY good

You want to see what an offense without talent really looks like check out some of those early 2000's teams.....seriously we went to the playoffs with Anthony Wright as the QB, kyle boller should be enough said....travis taylor the #1 receiver... lol...

6 hours ago, balfan23 said:

@ellicottraven - I wanted to just hit the original point of the post. It has morphed a little into draft approach (BPA v. need, etc) and I want to speak to grading Ozzie on this drafts since 2011 and whether his draft magic is fantasy or reality. 

Two things I think are flawed with how you laid out the information to use in evaluating performance in the draft:

• We are talking about grading the draft - not grading how well the team managed cap in order to retain quality players taken. Discounting those no longer on the team is not a valid way to view how well a GM drafted. 
• Is the question how well Ozzie drafted in the early rounds, or is it how well he drafted overall? Cutting it off at round 4 isn't a full evaluation. I also believe the signing of undrafted players is a part of the overall draft process and should be a part of the evaluation as well. 

If you account for those points above, you can include a number of notable players that you discounted - such as KO, McPhee, Wagner, Tucker and Orr. 

All that said ... I don't think you will find anyone, not even Ozzie himself, to say that draft performance over these years has been up to our standards. In the view of the rest of the league, I'd say performance grades out at about a C over this span of time. IMO his draft magic was a reality, but he's been living off his reputation over the recent years. I have to think from the ownership standpoint, that we absolutely need to start seeing better results. I'm just not sure what the "or else" is if it doesn't improve. 

I have a question how much does coaching impact player development...I ask because we pick a olb in the 2nd last year whom we knew was raw and then we ask that guy to change positions only to come back and need a player at that position again...I guess what I'm really asking is the coach and GM on the same page about these prospects, we knew before picking perriman he was a burner not a route runner yet we change to an offense that requires precise route running and timing. Then it seems to me at least your waisting the potential of a pick everyone knew was a project

10 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

I don't think you can assign a primary reason.  Each loss had its own issues.

True that but offense was weak for the first 3/4 of the season and lacked an identity let alone one that meshed with the talent on the team...coach says he wants to run the ball the next week we proceed to throw 40+ passes and almost criminally just didn't want to run it. Offense was a mess all year no other way to spin it, they did get a coach fired before the bye

Coaching and a misuse of the talent on offense. 

Offense sells tickets defense wins games is how the saying goes....but definitely keep adding pieces to the defense, the fact we were in every game despite dismal offense for the most part is a testament to what a great defense can do and we're only a few pieces away from being truly elite on that side again

27 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well, there's also the notion that the "brand of football" or "Ravens football" may need to be adapted to reflect a more modern NFL team. 

Hell look at our direct competitors. The Pittsburgh Steelers were supposed to be the epitome of a "blue collar" team. Smash mouth football. Run the ball up the middle and just try to out-physical your guy. Blitz all the time and just focus on stopping the run.

They do very little of those things any more, and it seems to be working just fine for now.

I agree we need an identity, but that identity certainly doesn't need to be the same as it was 10 years or 15 years ago, which I think is what a lot of Ravens fans are struggling to understand. Its no longer good enough to just be physical or attacking. No shortage of "attacking" defenses that get beat like a drum on a weekly basis (basically any Ryan defense). 

I also don't see the big TEs you guys are referencing. The two "big TEs" I see are Gillmore and Boyle, and they've missed about basically 10 games each. Waller is a big guy but he also doesn't really utilize his size that well.

2012 after cam firing and 2014 beg to differ...also I ask what was Denver's game plan last year, I ask about the Seahawks as well, Carolina last year.....enough with this modern league crap games are still won and loss at the line of scrimmage......you speak of pitt but what's their playoff record since changing from bruce Arians offense? THIS AIN'T FANTASY FOOTBALL BRO PHYSICAL FOOTBALL TEAMS PLAY AND ADVANCE IN DEC/JAN......we was a soft team this year we struggled in all but 1 game and folded against any team of quality when we used to dominate games with no QB...

Let me be honest: This is not Ravens football. The offensive and defensive schemes doesnt fit our personnel. We got weapons on offense, but the play calling is terrible. We got speed at WR and 2 good running backs, big physical tight ends, but we always go 3&out, pathetic!  On defense we got depth up front, but our LBs, safeties, and corners are not physical or fast. The " bend but dont break" scheme is not fit for Ravens football. We suppose to be an attacking physical D, not one that sits back and watch the other team march right down the field with ease. 

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This needs to be reposted over and over again until someone at the castle takes notice...a short passing game is not a substitute for running the ball....you have speed guys at wr work the ball downfield....Lets stop trying to be other teams and just be ourselves, the loss of identity is a huge problem and why I won't stop coming at harbaugh because he says all the right things and then come sunday it's like what the hell have they been working on all week

1. coaches take a coaching clinic on how to game plan and make adjustments in game.

2. Pass rush...

3. Pass rush....

4. Pass rush....

5. New center

6. Offense that uses the STRENGTHS OF IT'S TALENT....running the ball, play action, more vertical passing game....enough with the substituting the running game with short passing, learn how to execute running the ball without penalties

7. New approach with strength and conditioning, we're wearing down too much in the 4th 

1 hour ago, hn68wb4 said:

BPA isn't the problem, straying from it in the early rounds is the problem. Nobody would argue that Elam and Perriman were BPA, no way, those were need picks through and through, some would argue that Mosley would fall into that category as well, but people don't argue about that one because he worked out. I remember making a mock back then and getting negged like crazy for having Mosley to us instead of guys like Clinton-Dix.

The problem is that we like to preach BPA but in the first and second we almost never go BPA, aside from Stanley, who would fit into both categories, our last real BPA picks early in the draft were Jernigan and Upshaw - who were consensus first rounders and we snatched them up as falling prospects. After the first two rounds then we switch over to BPA and magically we start finding gems left and right.

Exactly it's reaches in early rounds trying to fill needs that's set the team back, that and being afraid to take on edgy players who may have character questions

6 hours ago, BigUgly said:

Would you say this team had more talent or less talent this year versus 2014? I would say the 2014 team had less talent but was more successful because they had a competent OC whose scheme and playcalling enabled the offense to make the Ravens competitive. In both cases, special teams were solid and the Ravens defense had trouble holding a lead.

I'm glad someone on here pointed this out....the excuses need to stop the coaching was the weakest part of the team....harbaugh doesn't have a clue, tressman was well just tressman, marty from the andy reid school hence lack of running game, dean pees how does he still have a job??? These guys was the brain trust this season and people actually wonder why we struggle and I mean struggle no matter the competition. We dominated exactly 1 game this year,  just 1. Folks like to believe we are contenders...don't believe it we have just 6 wins over winning teams the last 4 years....everytime we play winning teams we fold usually in the 4th....it's just hard as a fan watching this team knowing every week we're at a disadvantage with game planning and coaching adjustments and yet nothing will change.....What's that they say is the definition of insanity

27 minutes ago, FloridalovesRavens said:

Sorry but no one player makes a team. We fought a great game but lost.

Tell that to dean pees

6-22 the last 4 years vs teams with a winning record....please stop making excuses for this guy he inherited a superbowl team and since those guys left it's been mediocrity

1 hour ago, sami said:

Well Ray and Ed and others were here when we were had losing seasons before Harbaugh got here. And as soon as he took the reins we were in the playoffs for many years in a row. How do you explain THAT!

One word "quarterback" 13-3 with mcnair 5-11 the next without him....rookie d2 qb and rookie special teams coach was carried (dominant run game, ferocious defense) to the afc championship game

53 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Think it depends on perspective and what constitutes a "down year". If missing the playoffs is the metric, then you could be right. If Steve looked at the roster of players (coupled with injuries) from last season and tried to convince himself that we could roster enough talent in one offseason to double our win total to 10-11 wins, that I would say perhaps he's being a bit naive.

I know it was before the draft and I believe even before FA, but I remember Ozzie saying in the offseason that he wasn't extremely confident that a playoff return was in the cards, mostly because I think he saw the 2015 roster and realized we had a long way to go.

So it really depends on whether Steve really views this as a "down" year or not. I would think confidently that most coaches who go from 5 to 9 wins in a single year wouldn't be under consideration for being fired, but I'm sure its happened before.

So we just forget 2014 like it never happened? 5 wins last year was a result of devastating injuries to marquee players on both sides of the ball.....when you miss the playoffs 3/4 years your gonna be on the hot seat..... Just look at that rec vs winning teams and explain how this team is not underachieving

13 hours ago, JonnyBaltimore said:

This year we lost to:

Oakland (6-1 Road Record)  #2 Seed AFC

@ NY Giants  (7-1 Home Record) #5 Seed NFC

@ Dallas Cowboys (7-1 Home Record)  #1 Seed NFC

@ New England Patriots (6-2 Home Record)  #1 Seed AFC

@ Pittsburgh Steelers (5-2 Home Record) #3 Seed AFC

Simply put we got beat by better teams this year. We could have won many of these games. We just weren't good enough this year and we ran into hot teams.

And there in lies the problem....harbaugh record last 4 years is 31-32 of those 31 wins only 6 have come against opponents with a winning record, just 6 wins in 4 years 7 if counting the playoff win in pitt....and 5 of those wins are against pitt....6-22 is the record over winning opponents with only 1 miami this year coming outside the division. We are constantly being out coached in these games.....these are the teams you must beat on the way to the superbowl and we're not getting it done against the quality opponents

The worst for me is that along the way we lost our identity as the toughest team in football that used to maul everybody on both sides of the ball, now forcing 50 passes a game and getting scared on defense every 4th quarter of every game.

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This to me is the biggest thing they don't even look like the ravens anymore we are officially a soft team