PurpleHorseman

2 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

That is all I would pay for him if that, now if Zach Martin or Travis Frederick were on the trading block I'd be for giving up a decent amount although giving up 16 for almost anyone is still a really stupid move. The fact you think giving up that much draft capital is worth it tells me just how inexperienced at this you are.

Ah there it is, he is big and was one of your favorite players. Well shoot, I remember Ramon Harewood was even bigger, so maybe we should bring him back too, really help our line out. 

Also Collins being 6'5" is really important, really helps him get leverage over shorter defenders because we all know the high man wins right?

We all have draft crushes but just because they are your favorite player doesn't really mean much and is a great way to get burned when evaluating draft prospects. Happens to everyone here and you can't let stuff like that cloud your judgement when evaluating these guys.

Heck it happens all the time here even with current players. There was a time where people thought guys like Marlon Brown and Asa Jackson would be good for us. Players get hyped in camp every year and a lot of people get hit with a reality check come the regular season and those guys disappoint. Sometimes it works out like with Rick Wagner or Zach Orr but often we get Elams, Tommy Streeters, Aaron Mellettes, or Gino Gradkowskis.

Collins while a solid Guard is not worth giving up our 16th pick. In the current state of the NFL, draft picks are crazy valuable not just because guys are young but also because in the CBA they are dirt cheap. If you get a good player at a pick, you can get great value out of them in comparison to their actual worth. Once they are done their rookie contract however they get paid market value and FA prices are rarely a bargain for a team. We would only have Collins a year before having to pay him market value while with the 16th pick we get a potential stud for 4 or 5 years at a good price(see CJ Mosley or Ronnie Stanley, our latest top 20 picks). 

I agree with most of this except great players with rare skills shatters the rules of cheap players. If Lael Collins isn't recognized as the best lineman in the league next year I have no problem acknowledging this is a bad idea. I'm usually the one saying trade a round1 pick for multiple round2 and 3 picks. And trading players over 30 for draft picks. But once in a while a players potential curbstomps that strategy. I wanted to trade Dumevil for a round 3 after our 1-4 record. But I think this happens to be a rare opportunity to add an anchor to work toward a dominant offensive line. I don't disagree it's on the unorthodox side. But it's my personal evaluation of.

2 hours ago, hn68wb4 said:

By what metric was Collins ever the top ranked guard? I know you're not talking about PFF because they certainly never had him as such, in fact in their end of the season rankings they even acknowledged that the Cowboys line got better when he was replaced with Leary. All I can find with him as the "top ranked guard" was one game from two years ago.

Honestly, you keep telling other people to watch tape on him, but I'd wager the only thing you've ever seen of him is his highlight reel. That is literally the only way you can even begin to claim that he's currently a top guard in any facet of the game.

Seriously?? He was one of my favorite players in college. And through the process 

2 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

Sorry, haven't had fun on here in a while and someone saying to trade the 16th pick for a guard a year from free agency is just too good to pass up.

I'm having fun watching all the peeps that don't realize he is going to be the best lineman in the game. Not often a 6'5 320lb mauler moves that fast and fluid. He routinely pancakes 2 players on one play. Some on here say Dallas wouldn't part with him. You think he is expendable for a round3 pick. Lmao

10 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Uh yeah he did, you look at the tape.

No he didn't. Collins was the top ranked guard when he played. Will you be on RSR next year because I'm   saving this thread!!

10 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Collins isn't worth that, Ronald Leary came on when Collins got injured and outperformed him. Just about any draft day scenario wehere we keep the 16th pick is better.

Also -24 votes is pretty impressive

Leary didn't outplay him. Look at their tape. When Elam and Upshaw were called busts the negs were impressive. And it didn't help Elam perform and didn't help Upshaw get to the QB.lol if negs helped Upshaw he would own the sack record!! And do you want to go on that limb and say Leary is better than Collins? He is solid but he isn't better than Collins

2 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

But we wouldn't be able to / want to pay him because we'd have a ridiculous amount of money wrapped up on the interior offensive line - and why would we not consider other needs at 16 and get them for 5 years rather than Lael Collins for 2 at most

Glad you asked that. If we give him a contract early we could probably get him at 5 yrs $40mil. We have contracts coming off the books like Suggs probably retires after season. Dumervil was cut. Wallace coming off books. Yanda is no spring chicken. Working out a cap friendly contract is part of the trade to consider. If management waits til he is recognized as one of if not the best offensive lineman in the game. Then we probably couldn't resign him. 

It is my opinion the modern NFL runs through the offensive line. Controlling the line. It makes Joe that good. It helps the run game. It allows receivers to work routes. It can sustain drives with mix of run and throw. And make your opponent tired while ravens defense is fresh. A It would allow a bigger mix of formations. Keep opponents guessing between run and throw. A 2TE and fullback Running back one WR set would appear like a running play. But the protection and dominance at the line would allow the TE's FB and Dixon to get into routes from the backfield with intermediate distance as opposed to only a checkdown throw. That's only an example.

1 hour ago, Willbacker said:

@PurpleHorseman Gotta give you credit man you definitely think out of the box. I believe Lawson asnd Williams will be drafted before the 47th pick plus Juju should go in the 2nd.

Now with Collins why in the world would the Cowboys even trade. He's very affordable this year and if need to be could stick a 1st rd tender on him the following which would also be our options but yet with a 1st rd pick we could have our player for 5 yrs at an affordable price especially with the way we operate. Now with Olinemen in this draft it would be great if we could trade back but theres 5 linemen that wont be available with our 2nd pick imo. Robinson,Lamp,Bolles,Ramcyk and Feeney. All 5 of these guys could all start for us right now.

Cowboys would only trade him for a round1 pick. It knows what it has there and will eventually get his recognition as one of the best offensive lineman in the game. It would only trade him because money thrown in the line already with Travis,Tyron and zack Martin. And feels it has a great nucleus. And would take the pick to fill voids elsewhere on their roster like cornerbacks and safety.

My family and friends laughed as well when I brought it up. But aren't laughing after watching some of his clips. Yet it is an outside the box move. And he would require a contract. That part is bad. But if he Plays like one of the best overall lineman and players in the league then it is a good decision. At least I think it is. It is all personal preference.

5 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

But you don't trade a first round pick for a player whos gonna be playing on his second contract in a year. It negates the whole first round value thing where you get a stud player on a rookie deal for 5 years, were in no position to do anything of the sort

I know that. And believe me I considered that. I really think Joe Flacco can be a top5 QB with a great dominant line and only needing functional WRs. Flacco when he is comfortable the look over his targets and comfortably set and throw. He throws as beautiful and accurate a football as there is in the league.

The difference in Joe and Ben and Romo and Bree's is those guys can be hurried and find their target intermediate and deep. Joe when hurried makes more bad decisions and checkdown than the great and really good QBs. Evidenced by his failed completions and bad throws/decisions. If you watch him on all22 it jumps out right away on the eye test. 

Not a knock on Joe Flacco. The most successful young QBs this season. Is it any coincidence the top young QBs have the 2 best offensive lines? Bortles is as skilled as Carr and Prescott. But plays behind a bottom 3 offensive line. Jaguars threw all that money and draft picks into defense and forgot their young QB and offensive line! 

When the offensive line dominates. The QB feels comfortable to look over his receivers set and throw. When McKinney held down left tackle and interior line dominated Joe played his best. When the line struggled the next year he responded with his worst year. 

I know Collins would need a contract. But if we got him signed early we could avoid an astronomical Zeitler contract. And in my opinion we have the best RT/Left guard in the NFL. He could play left tackle very well if Stanley is hurt again. Ask all the sec edge rushers the best protector he ever faced any level

7 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i like ardarius stewart over juju myself. i just dont know about juju, i wanna like him but i dont see that fluidity, he plays hard and leaves it all on the field and has good hands and boxes out well, but i dont see the quickness, he rounds off cuts and plays heavy footed. he doesnt have the hip stiffness that strong had though, that much is obvious

Where do you think Ardarius is getting drafted? I thought b4 JuJu. Or else I would have him in my mock where JuJu is. 

I do however really like Lael Collins. He is worth the price of admission for all22. If I were building a team. Building the best Offensive line is what is getting priority. Collins i think is going to all pro this year and recognized as the best lineman in the NFL. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm going out on a limb. This dude is awesome! Will be great at guard and Right Tackle.

12 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i love keenan allen as a talent but the injuries are undeniable. ive come around a little on juju but still cant shake the jaelen strong similarities. jake butt, again injuries. personally i wish we went after robert woods, and while i dont think corey davis is this fail safe guy everyone hypes him up to be i still think hed be worth it at 16. not too big on zay jones either. really i just dont love this wr class, i think isaiah ford is still being criminally underrated and should go in the third

 

I agree. But duuuude please don't put JuJu with strong. I hated that guy. JuJu is so much quicker in routes than credited for.  He is so natural and fluid. I really like juju and Ardarius Stewart. Don't know much about ford yet. Zay is waaay overrated. I like Corey a lot but again not shatterproof. Allen is the kinda wr we need. Top end NO.2 borderline No.1 receiver. He is often injured but maybe it allows us to wrestle him away then he shakes that injury bug finally 

22 minutes ago, Jonah DeVito said:

You obviously have never watched him play. He would absolutely be better than JuJu if he was faster, he has some of the best hands I have seen. How about in the USC vs Colorado game this past year when he made Ahkello Witherspoon look like a rag doll on an underthrown pass. But yeah Tom Brady could cover him. Quit talking out of your ***.

Duuude. What is wrong with you. I'm playing. But he is slooooow. JuJu is the man.

10 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

weird... i agree with all of these points as well. i hated beckhams obvious self centered style, it never became a problem at LSU but you could tell he thought he was the center of the universe, i still prayed to baby jesus he would fall to 16 and that we wouldnt take mosley or HHCD over him if he was there... which im sold that we wouldve taken at least mosley over him. 

and i always thought joe did better spreading the ball around when no one receiver is a true standout, everybody being equally solid prevents him from defaulting to the same guy everytime the first option is covered. flacco has the stafford-megatron problem, the problem is we have pitta instead of megatron and it becomes an absolute disaster when flacco just flicks it to him the second he senses trouble.

Give us say a Keenan Allen,JuJu, Max working up to potential,Dixon,Jake Butt and Boyle at fullback and Our offense is top3. And obviously a top offensive line. Obviously I'm rooting for Chris Moore. 6'0 plays tall, Quick in his routes.

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

this just isnt true. i talk about what i see on film, the only time i get "arrogant" is when someone acts like a complete buffoon, like saying we should trade our first for la'el collins, but i wouldnt call that arrogance, just more shocked at what im reading and responding appropriately.

and when you say "defend" do you mean.. when the ravens pick a player, whether i liked them or not, i defend the pick? of course i do, im a ravens fan, when we select a player i dont like, i look for as much positivity as i can. i was pissed when we took perriman over byron jones and malcom brown, but i went back and studied the hell out of him and saw a lot of reason to be excited, same exact thing for correa, my original guy was Dodd who was also a project, but after he was picked i wanted spence or shephard until we traded back again, then i wanted michael thomas or jason spriggs, but when we took correa i found a reason to be positive. in the third i wanted billings, darian thompson, calhoun, or bullard, i didnt like kaufusi but i found reasons to be positive. 

DEFENDING a pick thats already been made by your team is not pounding the table, do you even know what that means? as a ravens fan i would be an idiot to just bash a player and hope for the worst so i can say i was right, of course i defend the picks ozzie makes, because he knows better than any of us and has a hall of fame resume and i want his picks to be right so we can be a better team. 

now if you wanna know some players i actually pounded the table for that we got... ill start from 2016 and go back: 

kenneth dixon, maxx williams, terrence brooks, campanaro, arthur brown, osemele, jimmy smith, and torrey smith. 2011 was the first year i started following the draft but didnt really get deep into it until 2014. there were plenty of other players i pounded the table for that we DIDNT take that turned out to be very good, and there were players that have been nobodies, which is exactly what you should expect when predicting a crapshoot like the nfl draft. 

 

we can also go over some of the bold predictions ive made that turned out to be right, and everyone called me crazy at the time... 

2016 

when nkemdiche was being touted as the first overall pick early on, i disagreed, because he played like he went blind as soon as he got in the backfield. 

when everyone thought derrick henry was a surefire first rounder, i disagreed because he is a slow starter with no lateral speed and an upright runner. 

i thought the best wr in this class would either be michael thomas or corey coleman, was torn on the 2, but currently it looks like thomas is the best. 

2015 

i thought trae waynes was very overrated and a late first rounder at best 

danny shelton was just average and needed to lose about 50 lbs of straight up flab or else he would get pushed around, cant throw your fat at NFL blockers and expect to win 

i thought devin smith was highly overrated around here, and while i liked his jumpball, i didnt see enough game to be a nfl receiver. 

i thought nate orchard was highly overrated and didnt think he would amount to much 

2014

said ODB was the best wr in the class 

i pounded the table that jordan matthews was unquestionably better than marqise lee and i was chastised to the end of the earth for this 

early on i called cyrus kuanndjio a future bust when he was being touted as a top ten pick 

i didnt like any of the big behemoth TEs of this class including: ASJ, troy niklas, cj fiedorowicz, and jace amaro, but everyone around here seemed to love one of them 

 

i could keep going but you get the point. this is all about arguing back and forth on opinions, some will be right some will be wrong, we are all gonna be guilty of it, but when you start calling people out as if they dont have a say because they predicted X player would do good but they busted, then you are on your way to making a bad name for yourself. whos gonna discuss anything with someone who comes back and says "lol im not listening to an idiot who thinks _____ was gonna be good". 

I actually agreed with most of this lol. Spooky!! I thought Matthews however was awkward running inside routes. Robinson I liked as much as Marqise. I kinda like 6'0 WRs that play tall yet are shifty and sudden in routes. As I root for smaller shutdown cornerbacks(go tavon young) Wunt  hir sum ting rilly fonny? I thought Beckham would be a beast. But I hoped he wouldn't because there was something that rubbed me the wrong way about him. Now his team can barely tolerate him. I would prefer 2 high end No.2 borderline NO.1 WRs over an elite NO.1 and solid NO.2 receiver. I know that idea is getting 500 negs for not wanting any our WRs to be a franchise stud receiver.

4 minutes ago, Jonah DeVito said:

Rogers does look really freakin good.

Huh? He better learn the Canadian national anthem. Like flex said by year3 Terrance Cody could blanket him. He would be a shutdown cornerback covering Sir Dareus!! He may be able to get open against Tom Brady

33 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Lol where did I say it was something I saw on tape? He looked damn good on tape, and I saw that he was slow, but I didn't realize he was 4.9 slow. I don't put much stock into workouts but rookie receivers can't be running 4.9 40s, speed dwindles each year and by year 3 he'll be slower than most guards, there's not putting much stock in workouts then there's just being logical. 

You don't seem to do either 

by the way, check the edit to the post above. im done talking to you because you are constantly hounding about things that never happened and you are just incapable of a real discussion 

We are having a discussion about your busts. How can anybody watch tape and say Rogers is better than JuJu? Do you like Chad Kelly? Would you change your icon and boardname if he takes ravens starting QB job and knocks joe Flacco to the bench? Or would you keep it

11 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

agholor? come on man you liked nelson agholor, a bust! i cant even listen to you anymore. 

see what im getting at?

It's rare I like a bust. You hit on about 20% of your players

30 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

this just isnt true. i talk about what i see on film, the only time i get "arrogant" is when someone acts like a complete buffoon, like saying we should trade our first for la'el collins, but i wouldnt call that arrogance, just more shocked at what im reading and responding appropriately.

and when you say "defend" do you mean.. when the ravens pick a player, whether i liked them or not, i defend the pick? of course i do, im a ravens fan, when we select a player i dont like, i look for as much positivity as i can. i was pissed when we took perriman over byron jones and malcom brown, but i went back and studied the hell out of him and saw a lot of reason to be excited, same exact thing for correa, my original guy was Dodd who was also a project, but after he was picked i wanted spence or shephard until we traded back again, then i wanted michael thomas or jason spriggs, but when we took correa i found a reason to be positive. in the third i wanted billings, darian thompson, calhoun, or bullard, i didnt like kaufusi but i found reasons to be positive. 

DEFENDING a pick thats already been made by your team is not pounding the table, do you even know what that means? as a ravens fan i would be an idiot to just bash a player and hope for the worst so i can say i was right, of course i defend the picks ozzie makes, because he knows better than any of us and has a hall of fame resume and i want his picks to be right so we can be a better team.

Of course we want our picks to work out. But you can not like a pick and be a fan of the team. And I said you like some busts and bang the table for some players. Never said you banged for players we already have. I have an email I could post from you saying Dareus Rogers is better than JuJu. lol Then you changed your mind only after his 4.9 40. And you claimed in your post you noticed in his tape recently he is slow and can't separate.

You were all over him before his 4.9 40 and 26 inch vertical. Then you claim to not care much for workouts and go by tape. Yet you were all over Rogers and on that bandwagon of draft steal. Then jumped off after his pedestrian workouts. And claimed you jumped off because something you saw on tape. lol Do you really know what to look for in an athlete? Do you know what you are looking at watching tape?

4 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

What position would he play for the Ravens beyond the practice squad (unless you want to carry 3 qbs which obviously steals roster spots from more needy positions)

You draft him round5 if he is available. If he really impresses in camp then you carry a No.3 QB. QB is the one position you keep an extra player if you believe you have a future pro bowler. If Flacco lays an egg again and plays less efficient than he did last year even. Then QB would be a needy position. Would it not? If Joe is terrible.

If Joe's play remains in line with last year. What do you do if Chad comes in and clearly outplays Joe in practice and preseason? What if Joe misses 2 games and Chad completely lights it up for 2 games? Like Brady did when Bledsoe got hurt. He could very well jump Mallet on the depth chart.

21 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i would think theyd be posted by now considering you pull this nonsense 2-3 times a week.

Nonsense? You arrogantly talk like your guys are future all pros. Yet most of the picks you defend turn to busts. And talk like you know what you are talking about. Correa is terrible yet you seem to think he is going to breakout. He is awful. If you have A foggy picture in your head of what an NFL athlete plays like you will acknowledge it is highly unlikely he breaks out.

I have no prob acknowledging who I liked. 2015 Lockett, Agholor, Jarrett,Diggs,Hunter. And of course Lael Collins. Man crushes on Jarrett Diggs Collins. Round1 it was Landon Collins and Agholor. A draw. I wanted  one of them round1. Was surprised he went a pick early. So it left Collins. An analyst late night at the fan turned me onto him.

11 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

lol ok. what skills does he lack to play as a respectable 2nd ILB? would love to hear this considering he has almost no film as an off the ball linebacker from college. as if there is something so terribly wrong with holding out hope for a raw but talented player we selected in the second round...

and yeah, if barnett fails to make an impact then ill be wrong, but trust me, i wont be the only one who was dead wrong there, considering damn near everyone sees a stud very much in the mold of terrell suggs. 

still waiting to see who you banged the table for in the past and proof of you doing so... and again still waiting for you to provide any proof of me banging the table for certain guys, you wanna falsely mention upshaw again like you do every single time we have this argument?

I'm not home right now. I have clips in my old phone of your reports. I always compare scouting reports. Never said you banged for Upshaw and Correa but you definitely liked the picks 

7 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

lol hes a project, a lot of players take time to develop, a lot of players have to find a comfort zone and settle in, correa didnt even know what position he would be playing until  zach orr retired, and still isnt certain because if we draft/sign another ILB he could be moving again. i dont know what you consider NFL skills but he has a lot of raw talent and Boise State is notorious for leaving players uncoached. 

do you need a list of players who didnt break out as rookies and developed later on? because it appears you just began watching the NFL in 2016 and truly dont know how often players dont break out as rookies.

He doesn't have the necessary skills to break out. Will you be on RSR next year. I'm already a member there longer than here. So you can stand in when Correa is terrible and your boy Barnett fails to make any impact. Some break out later but some don't. And clearly don't have the skills to

11 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

lol here we go again... where is your list? never banged the table for correa, i defended him after we drafted him, and his career is far from finished to begin with so way to really see things through... 

but absolutely, tell me who i banged the table for so i can dismiss them all again as false...

You can't see Correa is a bust and doesn't have NFL skills?? Do you really need to watch him play for 4 yrs to decide he is a bust? You are seeing who I like. I'll do you one better than say who you liked. I'll show you

5 hours ago, hn68wb4 said:

I'd never accept that trade. Collins is an inconsistent, raw blocker that is injury prone. Sure he throws out some highlight reel blocks every now and then, but I'd much rather have a guy that shows up every play rather than only once in a while. Also I disagree about the oline class, the OT class is weak, the interior class is pretty damn strong. Lamp, Feeny, and Robinson are all, in my opinion, great guards from day one. And after them there are a lot of guys with lots of potential, i.e. Dion Dawkins and Taylor Moton can play OG or OT and we have always valued versatile linemen, Dorian Johnson is another potentially good OG from the start. Interior line class is fine, gets a bad wrap because of the weak tackles. We can sit back and take a lineman that is just as good as Collins right now considering we could very well have our pick of the entire class. Not to mention the Cowboys will not trade their starting LG, they shopped Collins last year while they still had Leary, not the case anymore, they value their line obviously and won't let it take another step back.

The rest of the draft is fine, just that trade is ridiculous.

And I'll be your daily reminder that we aren't taking Chad Kelly and he's not a HOF talent.

Moton and Dawkins are projected top40 picks with many mocks round1. And can not play LT. Watch all the round1 sec edge rushers Collins destroyed. Including this boards darling Derek Barnett. Lamp is good but not the mauler Collins is. Google how many edge rushers  from sec said he was the toughest blocker ever faced. Robinson I want to like but he is more clumsy every time I watch him play. Many don't think he can even play Right Tackle

3 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

do as the cat is doing?

That's what you should be doing with all your busts that you banged the table for. You even arrogantly defended Correa. Shall we examine the players you banged the table for and stoutly defended? I remember most of them lol